Stockton plan cuts bond payment: $197.5 million

A Stockton bankruptcy proposal does not cut pensions, but the city wants to eliminate $197.5 million in pension bond payments over the next 25 years, a plan opposed by the bond insurer that would be stuck with the tab.

The bankruptcy proposal would end pension bond payments from the troubled city general fund, which pays for most programs and is deep in the red with a $26 million deficit that could balloon if employee lawsuits overturn emergency pay cuts.

Stockton would continue to make $41.6 million in pension bond payments from city special funds that are in the black but restricted for uses such as water. These bond payments would be based on special fund employee pension costs.

The rationale for eliminating the main general fund payments on the pension bonds, but not on a half dozen smaller bond issues for parks and a number of structures, is that the pension bonds are not secured by leases, buildings or other collateral.

“This is an unsecured obligation, and the city does not intend to pay debt service moving forward except on the portion being paid from other than general fund sources,” said a 790-page proposal released Friday.

After Stockton filed for bankruptcy on June 28, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Christopher Klein in Sacramento agreed to the city’s request to release the proposals, dubbed the “Ask,” that were made by the city during a 90-day mediation with creditors.

“The record will demonstrate that this city council did everything in its power to avoid bankruptcy,” Bob Deis, the city manager, said in a news release.

The pension bond insurer, Assured Guaranty, has said the bonds are guaranteed and will be paid in full. But the insurer, contending the bond proposal was unfairly “disproportionate,” accused the city of failing to pursue alternatives to bankruptcy.

Stockton issued $125 million worth of pension obligation bonds in 2007 to cover an “unfunded liability that was largely created by enhanced retirement benefits in the late 1990s and early 2000s.”

The city proposal said $124 million remains to be paid. With interest, the city is scheduled to spend $239 million paying off the bonds by 2038, about 62.6 percent from the general fund and 17.4 percent from special funds.

As in the Vallejo bankruptcy, the Stockton proposal cuts retiree health care but not pensions.

Although Stockton retiree health care, said to be among the most generous and expensive in the state, would be eliminated, the proposal is intended to strike a “balance” and keep the city as a “competitive” employer.

“Specifically the city has elected to target retiree medical care for restructuring, but to attempt and preserve pension funding for current retirees and current employees who will retire under the CalPERS system,” said the proposal.

The annual city payment to the California Public Employees Retirement System, listed as $16.8 million, is expected to jump to $22.3 million next year and nearly double to $30.2 million in fiscal 2020-21.

An additional payment for the pension bond is $7.7 million this year. Under the bankruptcy proposal, the city would make a $1.3 million pension bond payment from special funds and eliminate a $6.4 million general fund payment.

If Stockton succeeds in using bankruptcy for a major default, the increased risk may push up the cost of issuing pension bonds. In the view of critics, fewer pension bonds would not be a bad thing.

A large pension contribution borrowed through bonds can allow government employers to temporarily reduce regular pension payments. And if payments on the bonds are lower than pension fund investment earnings, the employer gains.

But pension bonds are a gamble, and Stockton’s issue in 2007 was ill-timed in the extreme. “Unfortunately, nearly one-third of the asset value was lost as stock market values dropped during the financial crisis,” said the proposal.

The bonds also are a fixed cost, lacking flexibility like pensions. When budgets are strained, employer pension costs can be reduced by getting employees to contribute more or by making actuarial changes that push costs farther into the future.

In two reports noting criticism of pension bond growth nationwide since the market crash in 2008 (even though interest rates are very low), the Los Angeles Times put the total issued last year at $5.2 billion, Bloomberg Businessweek at $4.96 billion.

Some of the pension bond issuers that rolled the dice and lost continue to issue more pension bonds, as if they are gamblers who stay at the table as losses mount, too deep in the hole to quit.

An Oakland pension system for police and firefighters, closed to new members in 1976 because of a funding shortfall, was intended to be financed with a property tax approved by voters in 1981, now costing homeowners an average of $419 a year.

But funding fell short again and Oakland issued a series of pension bonds: $417 million in 1997, $196 million in 2001 and $212 million this month. The city auditor said in 2010 that the city lost $250 million on the $417 million bond issue in 1997.

A city staff report on April 25 recommending the new bond issue said the city cannot afford to resume regular pension payments to CalPERS. The new $213 million bond issue is expected to allow Oakland to suspend CalPERS payments until 2019.

The pension system had 1,106 beneficiaries last year and one active worker, a 73-year-old police sergeant. The new pension bonds reportedly are being sold with interest in the “4 percent range,” well below the CalPERS earnings target, 7.50 percent.

Pasadena issued $47 million in pension bonds in March for a fire and police pension system closed to new members in 1977. There were two previous bond issues for the system with 275 beneficiaries: $100 million in 1999 and $40 million in 2004.

The small Pasadena system faces its own “fiscal cliff” in 2015. Property tax revenue for pension bonds authorized by SB 481 in 1987, now about $22 million a year, expires and an $81 million balloon payment on the previous pension bonds comes due.

The big-time serial issuer of pension bonds is the state of Illinois: $10 billion in 2003, $3.5 billion in 2010 and $3.7 billion in 2011. Illinois is faulted for not making required pension contributions and for an unusually high earnings forecast, 8.5 percent.

California started down the pension bond path when former Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger proposed issuing a $949 million pension bond to make part of the state CalPERS payment in 2004.

His initial pension bond proposal, picked up from the administration of former Gov. Gray Davis, was scaled back to $500 million. But ruling in a Howard Jarvis taxpayers suit, the courts blocked the pension bonds, saying a vote of the people is needed.

Reporter Ed Mendel covered the Capitol in Sacramento for nearly three decades, most recently for the San Diego Union-Tribune. More stories are at Posted 23 Jul 12

142 Responses to “Stockton plan cuts bond payment: $197.5 million”

  1. Captain Says:

    “A Stockton bankruptcy proposal does not cut pensions”

    – of course that would be because CalPERS has legally threatened and intimidated all distressed cities with legal action that will carry the full weight of the pensions funds political and financial muscle – which is decreasing with each missed earnings announcement. While CalPERS political & financial muscle is in a state of atrophy it isn‘t to difficult to intimidate cities on the verge of bankruptcy. CalPERS is the CORRUPT BULLY on the block.

    “Stockton issued $125 million worth of pension obligation bonds in 2007 to cover an “unfunded liability that was largely created by enhanced retirement benefits in the late 1990s and early 2000s.” The city proposal said $124 million remains to be paid. With interest, the city is scheduled to spend $239 million paying off the bonds by 2038”

    -with what money?

    “If Stockton succeeds in using bankruptcy for a major default, the increased risk may push up the cost of issuing pension bonds. In the view of critics, fewer pension bonds would not be a bad thing.”

    – That would be a good thing!. Allowing cities to gamble on pension obligation bonds suits CalPERS just fine because it’s the only way CalPERS can seem to increase assets when payouts are exceeding contributions and returns continue to fall waaaay short of assumed rates of returns. Allowing cities to use POB’s as a means of justifying higher compensation for public employees should be illegal. Selling POB’s does NOTHING other than allow cities to ignore the problem of structural deficits! POB’s are an avoidance strategy with long-term consequences for taxpayers.

    CalPERS earns 1% in FY 2011-12. Does that mean CalPERS is a part of the 1 percenters? Or does it mean that CalPERS will be charging taxpayers the difference for the most current losses, on top of all the other stacked up losses.

    Nice article Mr. Mendel (and I‘m only halfway through it).

  2. Captain Says:

    CalPERS returns 1% on assets was the headline.

    But CalPERS is only 70% funded, if even that, and the 7.75% rate of return (for the state the 7.5% number only started 3 weeks ago) is based on 100% funding. Nevertheless, CalPERS began FY 2011-12 with 239.5 billion in assets and ended the year with 230-234 billion in assets, despite the rapidly increasing contribution rates charged to cities and the state.

    Even with the one percent return on assets CalPERS total assets continue to shrink.

  3. Beelzebub Says:

    That’s fine. Cut retiree healthcare today and as soon as the next crash hits (and it will) give a buzzcutt to the pensions. HAH! As soon as the European Union collapses (and it will) hunker down!!! Then watch all the cities get into the bankruptcy line with Stockton, San Berdoo, Vallejo, Murrieta, etc….. When the next crash hits it won’t matter what CalPERS says. It’s easier to change the laws or to even change the State constitution than it is to pay people with money that is non-existent.

    They are going to bust the public unions just like they busted the private unions. Watch closely. They know the money just isn’t there for all this avarice and greed. Oh, the governments will hold their breath, turn blue and stomp their feet….but it won’t matter. In the end Mr. Math always wins. 2+2 does not equal 5 – no matter how much you want to wish it.

    Sooner rather than later the children are going to have to grow up and become adults. They must learn that there is no thing as a free lunch anymore. Not in this economy. The illegal aliens will get the taxdollars before the pensioniers do!!! HAH!

    You make your bed and then you have to lie in it!!! HAH! 😀

  4. spension Says:

    BZ, you couldn’t do math to save your own life or that of your children.

    The process will be Sovereign Default, which has occurred for a number of US states in our history. Cities can declare bankruptcy but States cannot.

    Non-union state employees get the highest pensions… totally incompetent to rant *exclusively* about the unions…. they are greedy like most Americans, but the administrators, University brass, and prison physicians who are not unionized get the huge pensions.

  5. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Sockton made a pretty cogent plan!

  6. spension Says:

    Unless you’re Assured Guaranty. I prefer regular, constant payments into the pension system… as CalSTRS has done; reductions in pension payments as CalPERS and more notably UCRP did feel good at the time but have been followed by overly painful increases, which is where we are now.

    So the `flexibility’ argument is poor.

    I also don’t like one entity left holding the bag (AG in this case). I’d prefer the pain be shared across the board.

  7. jskdn Says:

    To what degree are creditor claims prioritized by law? Is there a trusted source that someone might reference to see such a priority order?

  8. Beelzebub Says:

    “Cities can declare bankruptcy but States cannot”

    States can default and go into receivorship which is essentially the same as a bankruptcy. Just another term to describe it. And apparently you did not read my quote “It’s easier to change the laws or to even change the State Constitution than it is to pay people with money that does not exist”. Smoke some of that.

    “Non-union state employees get the highest pensions…”

    The white collar managers and professional have their associations that collectively bargain with the corrupted pols just like the unions do. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. To insinuate that the government professionals and elite managers work under the same or a similar system as private sector worker do is a bald faced lie.

    “Sockton made a pretty cogent plan!”

    Just another finger in the dike until the whole kit ‘n kaboodle collapses!!! HAH! First healthcare benefits – then down come the pensions!!! HAH! Watch the EU!!! HAH! 😀

    Keep staring at that glass of half full water until you burn a hole in it!!! HAH! 😀

  9. SeeSaw Says:

    No Beeze. The CM’s and other high-level heads, do belong to their, respective, professional organizations, but those organizations are not unions and do not bargain collectively for the members. The CM’s and other top managers bargain their own salaries and perks on an individual basis. It will make you sad, I know, but the pensions will not be cut–except for those that CalPERS is investigating for fraud. The respective entities who are going bankrupt did not manage well. All of the pundits have forgotten that it was the abolishment of Redevelopment that caused the little cuts to start bleeding profusely. Most public entities are cutting corners everywhere–many workers have been laid off. Pension reform has been ongoing on in the separate, respective public entities for several years–you and your cohorts just don’t want to recognize or admit it.

  10. spension Says:

    Sovereign default is an entirely different creature than bankruptcy. There are laws and procedures for bankruptcy. Sovereign default of a State will be ad libbed… not at all clear what the federal government will do in the case of a Sovereign default by a State. It might be that the US Supreme Court would rule that the Federal Government, as it did not reorganize, might be liable for the State expenditures. After all, the Federal government can print money. Or, it might be otherwise. No-one knows.

    Non-unionized high level public employees get big pensions because the jobs that they can get in the private sector they also get big golden parachutes and pensions.

    Yes, for a public hospital administrator, for example, the private sector gives huge post-employment perks. BZ, never hear you rant about that. You worship the private sector as gods who do no wrong.

  11. Beelzebub Says:

    “The CM’s and other high-level heads, do belong to their, respective, professional organizations, but those organizations are not unions and do not bargain collectively for the members”

    At the county level there are closed door session negotiations between the county and the manager’s associations all the time related to employment conditions and contracts. What you are talking about?

    And you will see some BIG pension and gov employment changes in phase II of the economic meltdown. Do you think the status quo will continue when municipal governments go broke one after another? They will bust the public unions just like they busted the private sector unions. And the bigger they are – the harder they’ll fall.

    The United States is not the same powerhouse that we were 5 decades ago with unlimited growth potential, seesaw. It take GROWTH to fuel those big pensions. The growth needed is non-existent. We’ve been fueling the economy with bailouts, money printing, artificially low interest rates and economic bubbles. Without the voodoo economics today’s GDP would be in deep negative numbers. They are using sleight of hand to keep our economic heads above water. And that only works temporarily.

    BIG cuts are coming. The days of wine and roses are over, sweetheart. You might as well accept the truth instead of fighting it.

    “Non-unionized high level public employees get big pensions because the jobs that they can get in the private sector they also get big golden parachutes and pensions”

    Oh baloney, spension. The government cronies couldn’t compete in the private sector. They are appointed due to their CONNECTIONS – not their expertise or competence. Look at all the executive malfeasance and corruption in Orange County’s government for instance. It’s a cast of clowns. Appointed clowns with political connections. To run a company you really have to be competent – otherwise the company goes belly up. In government if they screw up they get promoted.

    How did a guy like you become so far out of touch?

  12. SeeSaw Says:

    Beeze, I have worked in the public sector, and you have not. There are multiple layers of management in any entity, and, “yes”, some of them–fewer than more–are unionized. But, you won’t find your CM’s, Police and Fire Chiefs, and other high level dept. heads in collectives, because there are only one of each in most entities.

    The government entities are legally able to tax, and if the societal demographics deteriorate, so that there are no natives to pay, there will be correlations between the type of workforce that can be hired and the ability of the providers to sustain it. So, Beeze, your wishes will not come true. You really should be ashamed of yourself though, to wish downfall on all your neighbors. Why on earth, would you want your surroundings and qualifty of life to deteriorate–you need a mental check.

  13. spension Says:

    Really, BZ? In the private sector the top layer gets their without connections? Due to their competence and expertise, without corruption and malfeasance? Really?

  14. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Honestly…the poor Beezyboob has no idea what youre talking about.

  15. Captain Says:

    spension Says: “I prefer regular, constant payments into the pension system… as CalSTRS has done”

    Are you serious? What CalSTRS is asking for in the way of increased contributions, because they need extra money, will put a stake in the heart of the already failing California Educational system.

    Spension, by this time next year it is probable that Education
    Budgets will be the topic of the day. It will happen because what CalSTRS, and Jack, is asking for amounts to triple the taxpayer cost of what is currently paid. School budgets are already so tight they can’t absorb the additional cost – the teachers union wont allow it anyway. Even schools in the wealthist districts can’t afford to pay the projected pension cost increases. CalSTRS, Pensions, and your fantansy are train wreck in the making.

    The losers will be the kids caught in the crossfire between quality education and the California Teachers union (CTA) . And of course quality education will lose out to the union demands/agenda

  16. spension Says:

    Asking is not getting, and unfortunately, CalSTRS too has raised benefits too much. They should have guaranteed less payout.

    But I am dead serious that *in the past* contributions to CalSTRS (8.25% local school district, 8% employee, 2% State of California… well, that was 4% until 98-99, then declined to 2% over 2 years) have been *way* more constant than CalPERS or, worse, UCRP. The regents of UC totally neglected to contribute to UCRP for almost 20 years.

    Even though the payouts from CalSTRS were unwisely raised (see the history at )

    the CalSTRS benefits remain the lowest of California’s public sector… see Figure 6C on page 24 of:

    Click to access Full_Report.pdf

    To be clear, I think CalSTRS also unwisely raised benefits and caused the mess they are in, which causes them to now ask for increases. I think they should reduce benefits rather than get more State funding.

    But they are the least bad among the big California public pension systems. It is awful that the state keeps pouring increased funding into CalPERS, for example; CalPERS should fare no better (and should be cut more, IMO) than CalSTRS.

  17. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, we miss ya over at CalWatchDog!We’re stuck over there now with idiot Teddy Steals and his sock puppets and it SUCKS!

  18. Captain Says:

    spension Says: “Asking is not getting, and unfortunately, CalSTRS too has raised benefits too much. They should have guaranteed less payout.

    But I am dead serious that *in the past* contributions to CalSTRS (8.25% local school district, 8% employee, 2% State of California… well, that was 4% until 98-99, then declined to 2% over 2 years) have been *way* more constant than CalPERS or, worse, UCRP.”

    Spensions, I want to understand what you’re saying but I’m not sure I follow/understand your argument. Just because CalSTRS funding is constant, because they can’t raise rates without approval, doesn’t mean the constant funding is a good thing. It isn’t. It only means that CalSTRS is perpetually underfunded, IMO.

    My issues with CalSTRS are that they pay increased benefits, continue to pay the COLA even though it isn’t required, have diverted 2% of the employees 8% contribution toward supplemental benefits (meaning that between 2001-2011 employees really only contributed 6% toward their own pensions), and continue to pay longevity bonuses of up to $400 per month for employees that already receive extra longevity pay as part of their school district contracts, which also increasing the pension payout.

    You would think a pension system in the precarious position CalSTRS currently finds itself would eliminate the fluff payouts before going to the state legislature asking for taxpayers to triple their contribution rates. Unfortunately, that isn’t what’s happening.

    This issue will be front and center in one year or less. I don’t think people understand the impact the increased pension costs will have on California school district budgets. It is going to be ugly.

  19. spension Says:

    My argument is: public pension systems should lock in a fixed % contribution… otherwise politicians and other innumerate folks will tinker with the %, lowering it when it feels good and raising it at other times. Variation in contribution is dangerous and an unnecessary complication.

    Then the benefits must not be allowed to creep up, like has happened somewhat in CalSTRS but *much worse* in CalPERS (3% at 50!!!!) unless there is a sustained period (I’d say 40 years) of overfunding. Due to market volatility, 10-20 `false’ overfunding periods can happen even the system is underfunded.

    CalSTRS benefits are not nearly as generous as CalPERS. I even think that for retirement at age 65 or 67, CalSTRS post-employment benefits are about the same as the private sector.

  20. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Poodle— Beezy was booted from Calwatchdog for hate/race speech about the Commander-in-Chief

    We were all so sad.



  21. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz……………………………..please save us from Teddy Steals and his sock puppets @CWD……………he is even driving Katy and John bonkers……’re my only hope Beelz 🙂

  22. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Pretty sad if the ocODDball aka the ocobserver aka beezeboob is your only hope!

  23. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Help us Beelz, like Luke Skywlaker in Star Wars-you’re our ONLY hope to save us from the dark side fo Teddy Steals and the trough feeders 😉

  24. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:


    post now slave troll.

  25. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz….only you can save us from Troll Teddy Steals and the sock puppets………………….

  26. Beelzebub Says:

    rex, all the pro-pension trough feeders swarm to the anti-pension websites to spread their lies like vermin spread disease. There’s a handful of us who fight back with the TRUTH. And the TRUTH is like poison to a pro-pension trough feeder.

    All the cities who have filed for bankruptcies and those on deck to file for bankruptcy all say the same damn thing: “We are spending 75% or more of our general fund on public safety” – which means they can’t fix potholes or develop needed programs for the elderly or make infrastructure repairs because the big fat public pension pigs (most of whom live outside the cities where they work) draw larger salaries and bigger benefits than the average family practice physician, and the PS pigs get to retire earlier than a medical doctor with a much larger pension. Go figure. And these public trough feeders promote that garbage!!! HAH! Screw all of them!!! And the faster their ship goes down – the better!!!

  27. Beelzebub Says:

    I see that CalPERS is considering a lawsuit against those financial institutions that engaged in fraudulent LIBOR practices that help keep ZIRP (zero-interest rate policy) in place and is wreaking havoc on their ROI (last fiscal year PERS earned a whopping 1% return when the return required to remain solvent is 7.5% – HAH).

    PERS doesn’t mention that it purchased BILLIONS of dollars worth of worthless CDO’s from the big banksters in attempt to make a quick buck and fell flat on their faces! HAH! In fact, PERS still has those worthless investments on their books that haven’t been marked-to-market. They are being valued at the purchase price – not at today’s resale price which is virtually $0!!! HAH!

    I can’t wait until those assets have to be reassessed in value AT THEIR CURRENT MARKET VALUE!!! You will see the PERS total market value fall to sub-$200B overnight. Funny that PERS never sued the banks for selling them those worthless CDO’s and defending their pensioniers rights, eh??? That’s because PERS is run by ex-Wall Street banksters who are sucking millions of dollars from the PERS fund value every day and screwing the public workers! HAH!

    You idiots are being swindled from within and you aren’t even smart enough to figure it out. You blame everyone else for your problems and refuse to look at the ones holding the purse strings!!! HAH!

    You deserve whatever unfortune you reap down the road. Greedy hogs!!! HAH! 😀

  28. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    CalTURDS ROI= 1%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Baby!

  29. SeeSaw Says:

    Name the ex-WAll Street bankers who are running PERS.

  30. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    well asked seesaw—- and while the dull poodle likes the number 1….he hates the number 7.75 baaaaaaaby!


    god this remains easy!

  31. Beelzebub Says:

    “Name the ex-WAll Street bankers who are running PERS”

    Show me one that isn’t neck deep in Wall Street.

    And I noticed that you didn’t respond to even ONE of my fact based comments above, seesaw.

    You and Teddy run like hell from the truth. heh.

    Do you even know what LIBOR and CDO means??? heh.

    PERS is robbing you folks blind and you don’t even understand the methods being used.

    Like taking candy from a 1 year old.


  32. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy-Let the cannibalism begin. Taxpayers have the big pot, firewood, and lighter ready to go. Hop in Teddy, and fellow tough feeding gov bureaucrats. Or better yet, start fighting amongst yourselves to see who gets stewed. You’re all the same and it makes no difference to us who gets cooked as long as significant numbers of you reach 212°, although I prefer my Teddy Stew medium!

  33. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, CWD is dying, and Teddy has stinked the entire site up with his putrid & adolecense comments, why John And Katy didn’t ban him I don’t know-but they could have AT LEAST banned Teddy’s gimmick accounts…………… 😉

  34. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    BTW Beelz, how badly do you predict Clown will lose on his tax scam at the ballot box???? I predict a 68% against and 32%, for………..and 25% of that 32% will be the trough feeders and their families……. Anyway, Teddy knows I am usually correct 99.9999% of the time in my very insightful predictions……..give me your guess at how bad Clown is getting his clock cleaned November 6 🙂

  35. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    0 for 9 so far!

    7.75 over 20!


  36. Beelzebub Says:

    “BTW Beelz, how badly do you predict Clown will lose on his tax scam at the ballot box????”

    Well, to be honest before the SCOTUS upheld Obamacare and before the legislature approved the snail train to nowhere I thought Clown’s tax hike proposal had a fighting chance.

    But with the other massive taxes coming down the pike to pay for the train and Obamacare – if the voters of California approve yet another tax burden authored by Clown and company – the whole state is certifiably nuts. If the Clown tax is approved in November that’ll be enough to send me packing.

    From what I understand some polls say that Clown’s tax hike is winning. The question is can we believe those trumped up polls? I believe as we move closer to the election we’ll see a shift to vote down the tax like we did with Props 1a-1e. Clown has a lot riding on this vote. He’s bet his entire budget on it in advance if you can believe that ****. That would be like you or I forming our household budgets based on our projected winnings in Vegas for the rest of the year. Fing absurd. But that’s the government in charge!

  37. Beelzebub Says:

    To specifically put a number on the margin at this point in time is like throwing darts. But if somebody put a gun to my head and told me to guess – I would say Clown’s tax proposal will lose by 6 percentage points. I hope that the margin is closer to what you predict tho. I just don’t have the faith in the Ca voters that you got.

  38. Beelzebub Says:

    Very disappointed in CWD, rex.

    I expected more from those people.

    Although they write good articles on the gov scams they never discuss all the crimes and fraud perpetrated on Wall Street and they never talk about the damage Ca has sustained from illegal immigration.

    Not once have they discussed AB 1081 which will essentially turn Ca into a sanctuary state for illegal aliens.

    This makes me suspicious about where their funding might come from.

  39. SeeSaw Says:

    Beeze, you know that I am a CalPERS supporter–not a destroyer. You skipped over my question as to what ex-Wall street bankers are running CalPERS–of course, you were making charges that you have no facts to back up. CalPERS is not taking anything from me– I do know how the fund operates. I certainly would never rely on you to school me on anything regarding CalPERS, though.

  40. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    actually seesaw Beelz posted a link to CalTURDS advisors, and I found 20 on the first page alone………ARE YOU BLIND 🙂 ???

  41. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, Clowns tax hikes have NO chance, they had NO chance before the Bullet Stain fiasco was passed, and when the Bullet Stain passed that put the final nail in the coffin- I am going to laugh at the scare tactics Clown and the Chimps come out with before the election, but it won’t work, the JIG IS UP-the entire public knows about these gov pay and pension scams……I will be correct, like I always have been and Teddy Steals will have yet another troll meltdown 🙂

  42. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy, I am sorry for always being right in my predictions, you know I am trying to make a few that are wrong, but it just never happens 🙂

    1%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% BABY! ….LOL! :O

  43. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Poodle girl—– your famous predictions are delightful– please do not stop—- like your biggest one—– remember when you predicted the OC loss against the firemen and cops??

    Oh my that was fun—-

    0 for 9 Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby !

  44. Beelzebub Says:

    “You skipped over my question as to what ex-Wall street bankers are running CalPERS–of course, you were making charges that you have no facts to back up”

    I linked the facts, seesaw. Most of those fund managers are Wall Street bootlickers. You just don’t want the truth. Apparently that’s the way you’re wired. I can lead the horse to the water hole. I can’t make it drink.

    You are the one who consistently fails to respond to the factual comments that I make. I gave you examples of how the PERS clients are getting ripped and it flies right over the top of your head. I can’t help you, seesaw. And, by God, it hasn’t been through a lack of effort.

  45. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Oh…..and calpers bk by 2012? LOL

    and now a new one ! The defeat of the temp tax hike ! Now we know it will pass!

    Please—– MORE !!!

  46. Beelzebub Says:

    “I will be correct, like I always have been and Teddy Steals will have yet another troll meltdown”

    I normally use Teddy as my counter indicator. If he says the roulette spin will come up ‘black’ – I double down on ‘white’. If he says ‘odd’ I drop a load on ‘even’. Rarely does Teddy disappoint. He’s an idiot – but he’s a useful one. Do not discount his value.

    And I will party like it’s 1999 once Clown’s tax hike proposal gets slapped down. That will put the State into meltdown mode and it’s exactly what we need for a turnaround. Drunks need to hit bottom before they recover. California is no different.

  47. SeeSaw Says:

    The tax-hike initiative has nothing to do with defunding pensions, Beeze. There still might be tax-reform legislation by the end of the month–but if its reasonable, the Repubs will probably block it.

  48. SeeSaw Says:

    My error….I meant to say, “pension-reform legislation”.

  49. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    No one is “defunding pensions”, we just are not going to put 50% of the tax revenues into multi million dollar GED employee retire at age 50 pensions anymore. I guess the milkers will have to work until age 67 like everyone else does…….and maybe take less than $100K per year in pension payments, just a thought 😉

    Beelz, the jig is up and Clown and the Chimps know it. You are correct-the tax hike fail will be the rock bottom that Clown and the Chimps needed to get serious 😉

  50. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Oh…..and calpers bk by 2012? LOL

    and now a new one ! The defeat of the temp tax hike ! Now we know it will pass!
    CalTURDS BK by 2012-did you make that prediction Teddy??? If you did you’re a bigger troll than I thought!

    The “temp” (aka forever) tax hikes are going to fail by a 2-1 margin, a landslide, and that is a fact, if you take out public trough feeder vote sit will be a 3-1 landslide.

    Teddy, please put $$$ where your big fat stooopid and wildly infamous and inaccurate mouth is 🙂

    Thank you, the Readership.

  51. Beelzebub Says:

    Look at all the bankrupted cities so far…..they all say the same fricken thing: ‘Over 75% of our general fund is used to fund public safety”.

    Can’t you brain surgeons see the connection here? This nonsense can’t continue without government blowing up! These greedy selfish pension hogs are strangling the State’s fiscal artery. Everybody suffers because a large handful of pension pigs are suffocating the future of our children and grandchildren.

    As I have said before – the most despicable act that any living being of any species can commit is to contribute to the fall of future generations. Even wild animals that roll in the mud have more respect for the future of their young than the pension pigs have. IMO they are lower than squalid beasts.

  52. SeeSaw Says:

    My baby-boomer daughter and her husband are putting three children through universities at their own expense. How do you consider that contributing to the fall of the young?

  53. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, remember when I told you that the (all good high paying) jobs in gov, ESPECIALLY cop and FF, are basically inside jobs, cronyism and nepotism hiring mainly-looks like I was right again!,0,1254258.story

    WASHINGTON — Eight senior Department of Justice administrative employees should be disciplined for seeking jobs for their children and other relatives, and the department needs to tighten its employment guidelines after three nepotism incidents in recent years, the Inspector General’s Office said Thursday….eight current or former Justice officials, all senior-level employees, “violated applicable statutes and regulations” in seeking jobs for relatives. Since May 2008, the report said, many were actually hired, including five daughters, three sons, a cousin, a nephew, a niece and two granddaughters.….In addition, another daughter was offered a summer clerkship but she later turned it down, and separate attempts were made to find a job for an employee’s brother.

    Oh brother…..Teddy and NTHEOC are rolling in pain right now…… 😉

  54. SeeSaw Says:

    So what else is new? What does nepotism have to do with funding pensions?

  55. Beelzebub Says:

    Naturally there would be nepostism and cronyism when there are $100,000 jobs that imbeciles could perform with no chance of the organization going out of business due to incompetence and where no one is held financially accountable for the organization’s performance. I bet if they audited the police and fire departments the findings would be that a full 70% of the employees were hired primarily due to inside connections and not due to qualifications for the job. Equal employment opportunity my ***.

  56. Beelzebub Says:

    “How do you consider that contributing to the fall of the young?”

    Oh sure….they care for their own offspring but don’t give a damn about the future of the younger generation as a whole. My parents were very concerned about leaving the younger people a better world than what they lived in. And they fulfilled their wish. The pension pigs only care about themselves and their own kids. Everyone else can take a flying leap. That’s what I mean. A totally differerent mindset from my parent’s generation.

  57. Beelzebub Says:

    Rex, did you read that ex-assistant Sheriff George Jaramillo (OCSD) who did jail time for violations related to the Corona regime was awarded $948,000 for his wrongful termimation suit claiming that he wasn’t provided his PO bill of rights when he was fired? HAH! It was just upheld by the high court!!! Who are the jerks in the SO or in HR who screwed up??? Now we, the taxpayers, have to pay for their sins??? And Joanne Galinsky is suing for wrongful termination too, following in Jaramilo’s footsteps!!! Yet no one ever gets fired for screwing up!!! We are forced to pay for their sins while they continue drawing their big salaries and pensions!!!! There is so much corruption in the County how do we know the ‘OVERSIGHT’ was not intentional to give their buddy Jaramillo a nice big taxpayer funded bonus after getting fired for his violations of the law??

    I am so sick of government and the idiots they hire who are bankrupting us!!!

    This has got to stop!!!

  58. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    It’s Glen Beck time in the bunker !! weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

    Ted– GTroll Master

  59. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy Stew “recipe”; add in a dash of cronyism, a pinch of nepotism, a pound of entitlement mentality and 4 onces of never being aboe to be fired at the trough (AKA Gov!!);

    Teddy-Let the cannibalism begin. Taxpayers have the big pot, firewood, and lighter ready to go. Hop in Teddy, and fellow tough feeding gov bureaucrats. Or better yet, start fighting amongst yourselves to see who gets stewed. You’re all the same and it makes no difference to us who gets cooked as long as significant numbers of you reach 212°, although I prefer my Teddy Stew medium!

    Teddy Stew is best heated to hire tempatures to kill off the stank!!!!!

  60. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, get a load of this, a SENIOR STATE INVESTIGATOR was a CONVICTED meth using, 1st Degree MURDERER!!!!!!! Eeegawds……. Who in the hell did he know to get hired??? His Daddy must have had some damn good connections to pull that one off! And he spent some serious time on his knees! There is no way anyone could ever be hired in law enforcement with anything close to that kind of background without major strings being pulled- and major violations of policy;,0,2641965.story

    Focus turns to state investigator in UCLA lab death case
    Proceedings against a UCLA chemistry professor in the death of a lab worker take a strange turn when the defense alleges state investigator committed murder as a teen.

    The defense filing contends the investigator is the same Brian A. Baudendistel who, with two accomplices in January 1985, lured Michael Meyer from a bar in the Northern California town of El Dorado to a remote area to rob him of $3,000 worth of methamphetamine.Another teenager was the gunman. He testified that he shot Meyer with a gun supplied by Baudendistel — and at Baudendistel’s suggestion, the newspaper reported. Baudendistel pleaded no contest to a first-degree murder charge, according to Thursday’s court filing, and both teenagers were turned over to the California Youth Authority, where they could have been held until age 25.

    Good stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only in gov coudl a meth using, 1st degree murderer get a job as a SENIOR INVESTIGATOR in law enforcement!!!! I wonder if he is still using meth??? I think the DA is using meth if they think this case is going to stick, especially since the meth head has stated he was NOT the one who did the crime, yet the fingerprints prove he was….

  61. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelzebub Says:

    Naturally there would be nepostism and cronyism when there are $100,000 jobs that imbeciles could perform with no chance of the organization going out of business due to incompetence and where no one is held financially accountable for the organization’s performance. I bet if they audited the police and fire departments the findings would be that a full 70% of the employees were hired primarily due to inside connections and not due to qualifications for the job. Equal employment opportunity my ***.

    Excellent comment Beelz, except the $100K is only the **cash salary**, those are really $200K jobs Beelz…..and how about T-Rac’s GF (??) who was given the $100K job at Animal Control, without even inteviewing for the job!!!!!!!!! In the private sector they woulds not even have jobs like that, and even if they did it would be $10 an hour max……

  62. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    zzzzzzzzzzzz— these 2 clowns have turned this blog into basically an ignorant inarticulate dull-normal fest ! ™

  63. spension Says:

    Without a doubt there is nepotism, cronyism, and downright criminality in the public sector. But… where is there pure good without some level of criminal behavior? Penn State? The Catholic Church? The Anglican Church of Canada (check into their record with native american children).

    The Private sector is rife with all the same behaviors… Enron, CDO’s, LIBOR. The compensation issues are even more disgusting… $10 million bonuses paid out of Taxpayer $ to Wall Street Banks, BTW.

    But all the shrieking over excesses and criminal behavior both private and public doesn’t solve the basic problem under discussion here: that extremely strong legal contracts binding the state of California into overly generous public pensions have been legally consummated.

    It is not that these pensions are Defined Benefit; $ for $ of contribution, DB is more efficient than DC, and DC plans give a lot more $ to the Wall Street bankers.

    It all boils down to: either vested employees and retirees and the plans agree to reductions, and to get there, it would be convincing if all California public debt holders took similar haircuts.

    Or we do it through Sovereign Default.

    Hyperventilating about criminality doesn’t get the ball down the field.

  64. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    or— things improve over 5-6 years….new tiers lower payouts….contributions increase from workers——- problem solved.

  65. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Lower tiers??? Hahhahaha…….Oh Teddy, still have that pipe dream of paying off a million dollar mortgage with a minimum wage job “over time”, because the terms will change slightly 30 years down the road…….smoking crack is bad for you Teddy~!!

  66. Beelzebub Says:

    You’re right, rex. They’ve turned government into a huge whorehouse These people are sworn to be honest stewards of our public treasure. But they are thieves. What spension doesn’t understand is that if a private company acts financially irresponsible their risk of going out of business increases dramatically. When crooks in government steal from the people their chance of going out of business is ZERO. And the reason some private businesses like the Too Big to Fail banks rip us off is because the governement FAILS to punish them with prosecution and jail. So it ALL comes back to corrupted government!

  67. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:


    two angry guys…


    New tiers have happened, are happening and will happen.

    Sorry, it’s going to save billions. Maybe these angry lads don’t want to see that?

    Employee contributions are going up, have gone up and will go up.

    Sorry, that is going to save billions. Maybe these two angry lads don’t want to see that?

    Hmmmm, maybe these two angry sociopaths have a dif. agenda?





  68. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy-please step away from the crack pipe, you are sounding dangerous again 😉

  69. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    It is not that these pensions are Defined Benefit; $ for $ of contribution, DB is more efficient than DC, and DC plans give a lot more $ to the Wall Street bankers.
    suspension, can you post a link supporting your claim that DB are most cost efficient than DC???? No you cannot.

    And the bottom line is this- DB pensions cannot continue when someone OTHER than the recipient is covering the risk-do you get that???

    If a DB has a 10% ROI and others are covering the RISK then the DB cannot continue. That is how the gov DB’s are set up-to enrich the recipient while putting all the risk of loss on others- a Ponzi scheme in effect.

    So don’t try to lecture us on how great DB’s are when they are using fraudulent discount rates, age 50 retirements, $100K pensions and the risk falls on people making 1/10th of the recipient. If they are using a 4% ROI discounted rate, have a retirement age that is 67 like SS, and have benefits comparable to the money contributed and the risk is with the recipient then I am fine with DB’s, but you and I both know that NONE of those issues are tied to DB pensions.

  70. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Poor Poodle— asking for cut n paste links because he can never do his own googling….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz………….troll

  71. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Poodle—– hint—— just type DB plans cost effective into google…….there are pages………..omg——- Poodle has been asleep for years out here…..

  72. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    here ya go sleepy…

  73. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Oh brother, for you Baby Einstein (I just chnaged ONE letter 😉 );…15772.16238.0.16736.…0.0…1c.FmricMRAb-M

  74. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Steals—– hint—— just type DC plans cost effective into google

  75. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    My God Poodle, can you do ANYthing????

  76. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    you’re a joke—–are you unable to google??

  77. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    lol bwahahaha

  78. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    I am laughing so friggen hard……..PLEASE tell me Poodle that you’re not just now discovering Google ™ ?

    Hey—– type in “Jesus wept”

    OMG I have to catch my breath! LOL

  79. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    3 comments in 2 minutes, 4 comments in 10 minutes……..Teddy, do you have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder?? Seriously……LOL, you are crazy!!!

    OK Troll Teddy, you can have the last word, as always. Type now troll teddy 😉

    PS, only ONE post this time.

    Thank you, the Readership.

  80. spension Says:

    “What spension doesn’t understand is that if a private company acts financially irresponsible their risk of going out of business increases dramatically. ”

    Yeah, right. What happens is the judges get bribed, the regulators get bribed, a government bailout happens, the stockholders get reamed, and the captains of private industry make off with billions.

    More proof BZ is a shill for one class of thieves, the ones in the private sector. And sure, the public sector has learned that greed is good from the private sector.

  81. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Yeah, right. What happens is the judges get bribed, the regulators get bribed, a government bailout happens, the stockholders get reamed, and the captains of private industry make off with billions.

    Spension, you are just like the trough feeders, are you feeding at the trough too?

    Judges getting bribed???

    Can you name me one CA judge that has been bribed-and convicted- in the last 10 years???? Out of the 1800??????

    I can only name 3, in the last quarter century, that have been convicted of accepting bribes, and they were all connected to the same person so it really should only count as one.

    And are you claiming that ALL private companies get bailed out??? Are you serious?? You are making straw man arguments that is bogus, unfounded and have no validity to them. You remind me of the trough feeding cops and firewhiners who want to use the MILITARY pensions as support for their pensions, and claim they are comparable and legitimate comparisons, yet everyone knows that is a straw man argument, and the only ones who make it are the same ones who said 3%@50 will “pay for itself”…….

    Please stop making Teddy Steals type arguments, b/c we all know the truth and you’re not fooling anyone, just like you’re not fooling anyone when you claim DB benefits are more cost effective than DC benefits.

  82. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    BTW spension, please name me ONE gov muni tha has gone out of business in the last 25 years……. just ONE! And I will list 10K privatse businesses that have gone under for every one muni you list………….

  83. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Poody—— Have you had time to work on your Google skills yet?

    Spension has once again erased you! lol heh ™

  84. spension Says:

    Uh… $25 trillion bailout to Wall Street in 2008… forget much about that Rex?

    DB are simply more efficient than DC. DB- even CalPERS, that is inefficient, has 0.5% expense ratio. CalSTRS and UCRS are better at 0.15%. But private DC plans are up at the 1-2% level…when you take that much money every year out of $100’s of billions, it is a LOT.

    Once again, California pensions payouts are way too high, given the contributions. The problem is not DB versus DC, but awful actuarial work and greed on the part of both non-union public employees and also union public employees. Nice to hear that the State Legislature gave fat raises to lots of its folks lately… what greed.

    You want local governments going out of business regularly, Rex, really? Why not make a big deal about that: the Rex plan: financial instability of every public agency in the US. Maybe you could just move to Somalia or Zimbabwe straight away and experience that kind of situation.

  85. Beelzebub Says:

    rex, did you read this?

    Paralyzed cop sues Glock after his kid shot him in the back with his service weapon.

    Any other citizen would have been brought up on child endangerment charges.

    Stupid is as stupid does. 😀

  86. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Hahahaha…$25 TRILLION!!! Do you make these numbers up as you type>>>>>?? Biggest lie you have told only behind DB’s being better pension plans than DC’s (unless you’re on the receiving and not paying end).

    And since when is “Wall Street” every private sector business??????

    DB’s are not simply “more efficient” than DC’s. I guess the more you say those bogus lies the more you hope to be believed….and having a lower” expense ratio” (which is not supported by your link and in not true) still doesn’t’ make DB’s better pensions, not when they are over estimating return, over paying benefits, under estimating life spans and under funding the contributions. It does not add up. Never did. Never will.

    local.comgov’s do not go “out of business”, but if they were in an open and free market that is exactly what would happen, because in the real world you cannot hand out $250K a year unskilled/semi skilled jobs to HS educated imbeciles and remain in business, that is just a simple fact.

    Listen, you’re wrong about DB’s, you’re wrong about 99.999999999999999999999999% of the private sector being bailed out and you appear to be in the pocket of the trough feeding bottom feeders. Nov 6 it is game over. Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  87. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, thank you for teh link!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you read the comments!!!

    OMG, the trough feeding coppers are not very well liked by the public today!

    Locking up his weapon where his three-year-old couldn’t get at it would have been pretty effective in this case. This guy wants a payday because he was an idiot….and we know what the educational background of these people are …..can you say Joanne Galinsky??? 🙂

  88. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    Spension is 100% correct—- hit the nail on the head……poor poody and ocbserver (ODDball) have no clue! I love this stuff!!!

    I have to get away from the Olympic couch though– it’s tough!!! To the gym trolls!!

    Ted—Troll Olympian !

  89. Beelzebub Says:

    Rex, I’ve been slapping spension around on these boards into next year forever. For me it’s just sport to stay in shape. But he keeps coming back for more. He must be a masochist. Now he’s dragged you into the fight. 😀 The poor schmuck should just pack it in and give it up. His dad should have taught him when it’s time to raise the white flag and haul ass in the opposite direction! heh. 😀

    Looks like the cop got hit with some friendly fire, eh? I wonder if the kid had any gang affiliation or tats? No mention of it in the article. Now that junior einstein is bedridden he wants to lash out and blame others for his F-ups. Typical cop. If he didn’t like the characteristics of the weapon, why the F did he buy it? Was he forced into it?

  90. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    BTW spension, there are TONS of no load, indexed, mutual funds that charge NO FEES, so once again your claim that DC’s cost more than DBs are baseless.

  91. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, only a dork with a GED would leave a LOADED.45 Cal firearm, with NO SAFETY, unattended, in the back seat of his car, and then place a 3 year old toddler in said back seat with NO safety restraint, in violation of state law, and then expect to be rewarded for it. He has no case, just read the comments!

    Hey, we need you back st CWD, Teddy is still stinking the place up, Katy and John wont even ban his sock puppets! I think that since we were proven right about all the munis going BK over comp costs, and Teddy was proven 100% wrong, that Teddy has gone into full meltdown mode, he ha to post every 1.5 hours in his Teddy account and also 1.5 hours in each of his sock puppet accounts 🙂 We must have gotten so far inside the hamsters head he just is wigging out 24/7 🙂

  92. Beelzebub Says:

    Rex, I don’t ever expect to get reinstated over @ CWD. I called them out too many times on the Wall Street financial terrorists, the gamed Tea-Party that sold out to the mainstream Republicans, the illegal aliens who are helping to destroy the State of California and the nation, and more than once I have called out the hypocrisy of the Libertarian Party. Plus, I have called out fat people who blame their obesity on things outside their control. That probably bent the nose of the fat people on staff out of shape a little. So they had to use bogus reasons to dump me. That’s fine. It’s their website. But the number of clicks on their site has no doubt has fallen through the floor. They write good articles on gov fraud and malfeasance. But like the rest of the media – they ignore other forms of fraud and malfeasance by picking and choosing who the enemy is. I would like to know where their funding comes from. It’s very, very difficult to find totally objective and truthful websites these days – Ones that stick to the facts regardless of whom the facts favor.

  93. Beelzebub Says:

    Rex, I bet if a regular JoeSixPack not in LE tried to sue Glock after leaving a loaded 9mm in the backseat of his car with the kid unrestrained – then got shot in the back due to his own FU -the judge would tell him to FO and dismiss the suit. Like I said – if the cop didn’t like the features of the 9mm Glock – then why the F did he buy it in the first place? He knew what safety features it had or didn’t have at the time of purchase. And now that HIS decision didn’t work out he wants to hold someone else accountable. Typical cop. We read about the same attitude all the fricken time from LEO’s. It’s always somebody else’s fault. I am a true believer in Karma. Sometimes bad things happen to people due to karmic forces.

  94. The World Wide Dr. Ted Steele System Says:

    CWD is just fine without you ocoddball aka beezytool—– we like it better without you….well…much better.

    You don’t need to make up stories or revise history—You were booted for the bad hate/race speech re the Pres little buddy.

    Your hatefilled posts drone on and on…


    nite nite

  95. spension Says:

    SIGTARP says 23.7 trillion:

    Fed was an additional 7.8 trillion on top:

    Rex, how much of the private sector trough funded by the taxpayer of of $31.5 trillion did you slurp up? How much do they pay you per post?

    Sure, there are cheaper index fund-based DC retirement funds. But the people who are paying Rex and BZ for their posts don’t let their employees use them. The industry average is way above the good ones, like Vanguard. That is the point. People are forced into expensive plans because of all the kickbacks and larceny in the private sector. Can you say LIBOR?

    Above and beyond that, there is the insurance effect: in a pooled pension fund, you don’t have to plan for everyone to survive to 95 or 100. The average life expectancy of the pool is very uniform. But in a 1-person funded DC plan, you have to plan to live to 95 or 100 to match a DB plan. So you have to fund a lot more in the DC plan to match a pooled DB plan.

    I get no pension or public money at all. If someday I collect $30,000/year from social security when I hit 66, I know that is equivalent to about $1,000,000 saved in a DC plan. But you need a whole lot less in SS funding to get me that $30,000 a year, because DB plans are simply more efficient.

    Which is not to say California’s plans are correctly funded or free from greed of non-union and union arguments. Odd you overlook me saying that, BZ and Rex. You just don’t understand enough to truly know the origin of the problem… not DB, but numerical ignorance of the same sort you guys practice. And you bet, pensions for vested employees and pensions better be cut, and no way will Brown’s tax proposal pass unless that happens. I just think the only legal way is if the pensioners/vested employees agree voluntarily, OR, sovereign default. A contract is a contract.

    The only things BZ kicks are his wife, boyfriend, dog, and little boys and girls in his neighborhood. Whoops, Rex is his female dog.

  96. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    suspension, I am not going to keep knocking you out with facts, so will just address the first comment/link in your book length post. You STATEMENT from

    “Uh… $25 trillion bailout to Wall Street in 2008… forget much about that Rex? ”

    There in you stated, falsely, that the gov spent $25 TRILLION on “Wall Street”.

    Now, to try to support hat BS you linked to an ABC news report, the very first line of which stated;
    “The total potential federal government support could reach up to $23.7 trillion,”

    #1- Gov did not spend $25 trillion on anything, much less WALL STREET;
    #2- TARP was on MANY industries, including millions to the car industry;
    #3- The ABC article stated, or I should say SPECULATED, that the POTENTIAL could be 23.7 trillion,

    So once again you posting book like comments that are just pure spin, SPIN SPIN SPIN…………… I have called you out, busted you, now admit you lied.

  97. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    BTW-just to set the record straight since you try to spin the facts and truth so much, 94% of Americans, including me and Peelz here, were AGAINST TARPO and the bailouts-I would have let Goldman Sachs, AIG and the rest go BK,

  98. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    No Load, Indexed Mutual Funds = NO FEES.

    What part fo that does not compute??????

    So much for Spensions theory that the fees make DC’s more costly than DB’s….we wont even go into the underfunding, overpayment in benefits, unattainable ROI benchmarks and 60% earlier retirement ages…….

  99. Rt. Rev. Theodore Steele DD Says:

    Spensions— I seriously think that the poodle is not able to analyze what you’re giving him. As you can see above, I gave him a whole page of fact based info and… guessed it…….nothing. Not sure if he can’t do math? or maybe he just wants to advocate in a fairly primitive way? Not sure — I do know though that he just does not seem to understand the relevant points.


    oh…..and he remains……….0 for 9 !

  100. Rt. Rev. Theodore Steele DD Says:

    oh— as of today—- 234.9 BILLION baaaaaaaaaby ! ( i just looked)

    QUICK !!! HURRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  101. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    1%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% BABY!

  102. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, can you please take over the Teddy Steals smackdowns, my hand is hurting!!!!!!!

  103. spension Says:

    It is of course, SIGTARP, Neil Barofsky, who says the liability for TARP could reach $23.7 trillion. uh, excuse me, are you saying that Wall Street is so ethical that they’ll leave ungrabbed money on the table?

    And let’s not forget the $7.8 trillion through the Fed.

    Holy crap, Rex, you are more factless whack job than even I imagined. See the most famous index fund firms table here….

    Is the expense ratio 0.00% for any fund they run, most of which are index funds? If you had a single fact in your mind you’d know that John C. Bogle, founder of Vanguard and the most prominent early advocate of index funds:

    is harshly critical of most of the DC fund managers and the horrible expenses they charge.

    But, Rex, you live in a fact-free zone, where the $ you get from the felons on Wall Street causes you to write any random thing that feels good at the time.

  104. spension Says:

    Not a single in Vanguard has a 0% expense ratio, Rex:

  105. spensian Says:

    Ha ha! See a single fund in the table with a 0% expense ratio? Sorry, Rex, you are in the fact-free zone again.

  106. Rt. Rev. Theodore Steele DD Says:

    LOL– I bet your hand is hurting Poodle boi—— But not from any smackdowns!

    7.75 for 20

    This is just too easy !

  107. Beelzebub Says:

    rex, even the village idiot has his story and the right to tell it to those who will listen. I am a big believer in the 1st amendment. So I welcome all comments, as absurd and irrational that some might be.

    Teddy has his purpose. He keeps me in tune with the delusions fomented by the other side. I find it more comical than offensive. A human is characterized by the beliefs that he holds. But through anonimity Teddy is protected from personal ridicule. We know him only through his moniker. And that’s a good thing. Anonimity begets free expression so that commenters do not hide their inherent beliefs. It makes internet so, so entertaining.

    We already see how those in charge are trying to destroy anonimity and freedom of expression with Facebook. Personally, I hope Facebook goes out of business. And just the other day their stock value took a HUGE dump. I hope that trend continues. And I think it will since their revenue is dependent on advertising revenue. And as more people understand how their privacy rights are being invaded Facebook will fade in popularity and the revenue will dry up.

    Full disclosure: I am short Facebook. I am not an investment advisor. Please consult with your individual financial advisor prior to making investment decisions. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

    Have a nice Sunday.

  108. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Facbook is getting CLOBBERED! oFF 40% from ipo…WHAT A DISASTER…..

  109. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy, this website is a family website-please keep your comments clean.

    Thanks you.

    The Readership 🙂

  110. Beelzebub Says:

    rex, re: spension, I linked the list of the CalPERS investment mangers earlier. The first page alone had 36 managers. There are 6 pages. Do the math. 6×36=216. Each one of those firms demands a fee for their services. Ask spension how much CalPERS spent for those Wall Street firms last fiscal year. You will get the deer in the headlights look. Look at the first page. Groups like Carlyle and Blackstone. Anybody with a clue knows their history. Google them. heh. There are MASSIVE amounts of black hole money leaving the back door at CalPERS arranged by the Wall Street butt buddies who work in PERS. As I mentioned before, PERS wasted HUGE investment dollars on CDO that are practically worthless but valued at the purchase price – not market value. Those investments were purchased from the Wall Street lords. heh. spension won’t tell you about that. I will tho. 😉

    You are correct. Most corporations use one big brokerage company (Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab, etc…) to manage their 401-k plans for their employees. The employees have a variety of funds or index funds to choose from – from sector funds to low cost index funds like S&P 500.

    PERS could do the same thing by switching to DC’s versus DB plans to cut WAY back on financial fees paid out the back door to the Wall Street lords. But they won’t. The reason is obvious. And naive folks like spension swallow the bait all the way down to their gut. Hook, line and sinker.

    Look at PERS ROI for the last fiscal year. A meager 1%. Hell, the return on the S&P 500 index with an expense ratio 0.18% beat that by a mile! So what did those 216 financial advisors get the PERS clients??? SQUAT!

    It’s not hard to figure this stuff out, rex. Some people get it – some people never will – even when it’s pointed out to them.

    As I said before – you can lead them to the water hole – you can’t force them to drink! 😀

  111. Rt. Rev. Theodore Steele DD Says:

    LOL Beezyboob “shorts” Facebook ™ —– he shorts everything, –cause he’s broke !!!

    Oh my

  112. Beelzebub Says:

    rex, how Teddy’s little elf “queeq” doing over @ CWD? Do the two of them still slobber over one another? heh. They always struck me to be the Odd Couple of the comment boards – sort of like Felix and Oscar on a more intimate level. I was always impressed with how they covered one another’s back. heh. 😉

  113. spension Says:

    Click to access TheRetirementSavingsDrain-Final.pdf

    see Figure 1 on page 2… because of fees and the `longevity effect’ DB plans are roughly 1/2 the cost (for the same benefit) as the *actual* DC plans implemented in the US.

    Fidelity is actually quite expensive. Vanguard is great. Most employees in US systems don’t have access to either; they are stuck with 2.5% fees etc.

    DC plans are a bonanze for financial firms… in my opinion the same people who pay BZ and Rex to post here.

    DB is simply more efficient than DC. It is a numerical fact… if you can’t do math you believe otherwise. And I know: BZ and Rex will only ever rant about DC being somehow better, without any numerical support or citations of studies. It is simply their religion, like snakehandling is some people’s religion.

    CalPERS is notoriously expensive… 0.5% expense ratio, which is why, in part, UCRS broke off in the early 1960’s. CalPERS could be *way* better, particularly if they just retained Vanguard and used index funds…. probably could get their expense ratio below 0.1%.

    But yes, they think they could do better with lots of dubious and some criminal consultants. The best of both worlds would be a DB plan invested in index funds.

  114. Beelzebub Says:

    It’s a shame they don’t have a Special Olympics for news board posters. I am going to ask the President’s Comittee on Mental Fitness to consider it. Teddy is my first choice as a nominee.

  115. Rt. Rev. Theodore Steele DD Says:

    Queeg and I are fine—– too bad, such a shame you can’t join us anymore over there…..mmmmmmmm…..I guess your poor conduct precludes that……shame………….

    Hey on another note—- Spension is raising some good points in the above post!

  116. Rt. Rev. Theodore Steele DD Says:

    of course a DB in only indexed funds is far to undiverse…………I think CP has done a fine job over time…….7.75 over 20 years…..

  117. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    spension ypou are dumber than teddy is, and teddy is dumer than a bag of rocks.

    ANYONE who claims a DB is cheaper then a DC is either an idiot, or the one on the receiving end of that DB ripping off everyone else.

    Hey, you still haven’t recvoered from that smack down I laid on you with that RIDCULOUS $25 TRILLION!!!!!!! garbage.

    You and teddy need to go spoon with each other until more brain cells develop 😉

  118. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beels, Im out of here, too many dorks stinking the place up….see you over at CWD 😉

  119. Beelzebub Says:

    Say “hi” to the Libertarian censors over there for me.

  120. The Ted System Says:

    Poodle– first of all–

    Shame on your name calling childlike posts.

    Your pal Beezy aka ocobserver can’t go with you to CWD because he was booted.

    Sorry little fella!

    Post now!!!!!

  121. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Read and LEARN Teddy!

    MUST READ for all trough feeders and all tax payers…in fact, now that San Diego and (more on point) San Jose have passed pension reform the public unions have filed lawsuits and I predict that the San Jose case will go to the CA Supreme Court, and it is going to be BYE BYE to the notion that public are locked in from day one. Prospective pension changes, for future years not yet worked, are on their way in BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Statutes as Contracts? The “California Rule” and Its Impact on Public

    Click to access ILR_97-4_Monahan.pdf

    (Beelz, Teddy is having a full on heart attack right now, after reading this short 55 page law review……pension gig is nearly up!!!)

  122. Beelzebub Says:

    No doubt, rex.

    TPTB can impose their will on any special interest group. No one is immune. And as the money runs out watch them do an end run around whatever rules that Teddy was so naive to believe protected him. heh. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell Teddy for years. The guy plugs his ear with cotton and yells “I can’t hear ya – I can’t hear ya”. Well, when the direct deposit suddenly comes to an end – maybe that’ll wake him up.

    You can’t trust anyone on the SCOTUS to follow the Constitution either rex. Look what Roberts did with Obamacare. Today Scalia who is supposed to the the bread and butter of conservative constitutionalists was quoted to say “Guns may be regulated” with an all out-attack on the 2nd Amend.

    Google the article and read it.

    There are NO sacred cows anymore, rex. Everybody becomes a target when the money begins to run out.

  123. spension Says:

    The only smack down you keep dealing is down on your own crotch, Rex. You are claiming that Wall Street will leave $25 trillion on the table… go argue with the Special Inspector General for TARP, Neil Barofsky, about it, who is far more informed than you. And don’t forget that $7.8 trillion out of the Fed.

    DB, for a given benefit, is mathematically more economical than DC. To claim otherwise is snake handling. You guys give absolutely no facts or figures to support your claim. I have.

    Which is not to say public entities have managed things well… Oakland is the latest…

  124. Beelzebub Says:

    Does your skull have antibodies that destroy common sense, spension?

  125. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:


    Uh… $25 trillion bailout to Wall Street in 2008… forget much about that Rex?

    Hahhaahahhah $25 vTRILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ……hahahhahahaah…..I killed you buddy.

  126. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    DB’s, mathamatically are a scam and DC’s are cheaper. BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No load indexed mutal funds baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  127. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, please try to hammer some knowledge into spensions bonehead., he is now claiming that the gov bailout is-get a load of thois……. wait for it….. $31 TRILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Please try to get him to see the head doc, the shrink, the looney tooney doc……..he is nuts. We have a $16 tillion national debt that took 150 years to build up, and spension is now claiming that Wall Street was bailed out twice that amount in the 6 month TARP program…..spension is coo koo for ko co puffs 😉

  128. The Ted System Says:

    LOL— U of Iowa !! OMG– a “controlling” law review articla that “must” be followed! Bwahahahahaha lol.

    Beezyboob— You don’t think J Roberts got it right ? LOLOL ok— you ARE so much brighter!

    And to top it all off— yet another Poodle Prediction ™ (that he will deny later!) When he loses this one he’s 0 for 10 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This stuff is just getting easier !!!!!!!!!!!!

    The Almighty Ted !!!!!!

    Hurry Trolls !!!!!!!!!!!!

  129. spension Says:

    Enjoy your exchanges of santorum, BZ and Rex.

  130. Beelzebub Says:

    spension fails to mention that without those bailouts the pension funds would be 20% funded today. So it wasn’t just the crooked banks that benefited. I belong to the camp that opposed the bailouts because all they did was increase the debtload substantially which will come back to bite us sooner rather than later. It’s called kicking the can down the road. The problem is that the damage becomes exponentially worse as you put off implementing painful solutions that should have been done a long, long time ago. If you add in all the QE and zero interest loans and bailouts we are talking a couple dozen trillion. If you tack on the derivative debt it goes into the stratosphere. The bottom line is that it’s all unsustainable. It will all have to come tumbling down because poltiticians don’t want to offend the electorate by telling them it’s time to take their medicine. This economy is going to blow up. Mark my works. There is NO OTHER mathematical outcome possible now. The damage is irreversible. And when the economy blows it takes the pension funds with it. That’s the long and short of it.

    spension is an idealist who sees the glass half full. He’s an idiot.

  131. spension Says:

    Beez… please wipe Ted’s santorum off your fingers (won’t say how it got on your fingers) before using your keyboard.

    So you are pro-bailout now…. you love those $10 million taxpayer-funded bonuses for the boys who caused the whole problem. Whoops I guess their santorum is all over your bod too.

  132. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Hhahahaahahahaa…I predict a change in the law very soon… 😉

  133. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    rex, how Teddy’s little elf “queeq” doing over @ CWD? Do the two of them still slobber over one another?
    Beelz, Queeg IS Teddy!

  134. spension Says:

    Rex you have BZ’s santorum all over your fingers… just stop stinking up this site with it, and go back to trying to lure children into your house with candy.

  135. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Spension, you have been DESTROYED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  136. spension Says:

    Hahahahahaha! You are TOTALLY DESTROYED!!!!!!!!!

  137. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:


  138. spension Says:


  139. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Me and Beelz have DESTROYED YOU spension, just admit it lil buddy 😉

  140. spension Says:

    You and Beelz have DESTROYED YOUR OWN TESTICLE, well the one you still had left, nano brain.

  141. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    LOL…spension is in full meltdown mode 😉

  142. the Gigantic Ted Says:


    spensions has owned you for months…lol

    but you don’t know it

    but the rest of us do….

    nite nite

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