CHP union exec: lower pensions for new hires?

The chief executive of the trendsetting California Highway Patrol union told a CalPERS forum last week that he is thinking about negotiating lower pension benefits for new hires, a move to protect them from a greater rollback by a future initiative.

Jon Hamm, the CEO of the California Association of Highway Patrolmen, said he is concerned about “pension envy” among private-sector workers with dwindling retirement security as corporations switch to 401(k) individual investment plans.

Hamm said “public employee unions are becoming villains” because some are playing on public fears. He also said assuming that economic growth will return to “normal” and generate the big pension investment earnings of the past could backfire.

“I never thought that negotiating a ‘two-tier’ retirement system would be something that I would ever consider,” Hamm said.

“But I have come to the conclusion it’s a very strong likelihood I would be looking out for future employees by negotiating a second-tier retirement system,” he said. “The last thing we want to do is leave it to the initiative process.”

Creating a second tier of lower benefits for new hires is one way to lower pension costs. But significant savings can take decades, until employees with the lower benefits begin to retire.

Pensions promised current employees and retirees are regarded as vested rights, protected by contract law, that cannot be reduced without providing something of equal value.

“My feeling,” said Hamm, “is that if it is possible to negotiate pension reform, even if there is not something offsetting it …and something that I totally disagree with is negotiating a second-tier system so that current employees get a pay raise out of it — in other words, sell out future members. I think that’s a huge mistake, and yet it has happened in the past.”

Negotiations by the Highway Patrol union led to the passage of legislation that created a pension formula, since adopted for many police and firefighters throughout the state, that allows retirement at age 50 with 3 percent of final pay for each year served.

“That’s our group,” said Hamm. “We negotiated the ‘3-at-50’ plan.”

The legislation, SB 400 in 1999 that made other major changes, is cited by advocates of pension reform, who say the bill undermined a second tier of lower benefits for state workers enacted in the early 1990s and led to “unsustainable” pension increases.

Hamm remains a strong supporter of early retirement for law enforcement officers. As with the military, he said, law enforcement is not an old person’s job and accident scenes and other stress take “a toll over the years,” leading to burnout.

“If you called a cop and he came up to your door in a walker, would you feel very comfortable?” Hamm said, using an extreme example to make his point.

The Highway Patrol union was praised by nonpartisan Legislative Analyst Mac Taylor last year for becoming the first state worker union to begin prefunding retiree health, diverting two scheduled annual pay raises.

A governor’s commission recommended in 2008 that retiree health be prefunded. The state had set aside no money to pay for health care promised retired state workers, estimated by the commission to cost $48 billion over the next 30 years.

Prefunding retiree health care would allow investment earnings to pay for much of the cost, like pension systems that expect to get about 75 percent of their revenue from investments. And current worker costs would not be shifted to future generations.

Hamm spoke at a “California Retirement Dialogue” in Sacramento sponsored by the California Public Employees Retirement System to examine public pensions and “ideas for ensuring future retirement security.” Another forum is scheduled Feb. 12 in Los Angeles.

At the forum last Friday (Jan. 29) Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger’s pension advisor, David Crane, clashed with David Low of the California School Employees Association, the spokesman for a union coalition defending public pensions.

The governor proposed last June that pensions for new state employees be reduced to the level in effect before SB 400. Unions opposed the proposal to return to the previous two-tier plan.

Crane and others think CalPERS is banking on overly optimistic investment earnings, an annual average of 7.75 percent. The state would have to pay for a shortfall, adding to cost increases already being phased in from the historic stock market crash.

Faulting CalPERS for failure to disclose, Crane said CalPERS did not tell legislators how SB 400 could increase state costs if earnings fell short and, currently, declines to say what impact earnings of only 6 percent would have on future costs.

“My biggest criticism of CalPERS is just that — shine a light on yourself,“ Crane said.

Low said the governor’s statement last month that the state payment to CalPERS has increased 2,000 percent in the last decade is misleading. The state payment, now $3.5 billion, dropped to $150 million a decade ago because of a booming stock market.

Citing CalPERS figures, Low said SB 400 adds $500 million to annual state costs. State pension costs as a percentage of payroll are less now than in 1980, he said, and in the long run CalPERS earnings should continue their 30-year average, 8 percent.

Low said the average annual pension received by his union retirees, $1,134 a month for 16.7 years of service, is probably less than Crane earns in a month. He also said the investment firm where Crane worked 25 years, Babcock and Brown, went bankrupt.

“Huey Long couldn’t have done it better,” Crane replied, referring to the Louisiana governor who advocated wealth distribution during the great depression. He said he left his former firm because of mounting debt, an echo of his pension concern.

Low and several other union representatives at the forum said any pension changes should be negotiated at the bargaining table, not imposed by legislation or initiatives.

“All up and down California unions are going to the bargaining table negotiating in good faith and in many cases we are giving up benefits,” said Low. “We don’t like it. But we don’t have any great interest in our employers going under either.”

Similar remarks about givebacks being made during local contract negotiations throughout the state were made by representatives of firefighter, police and city employees.

Several persons said that unions are preparing legislation to curb “spiking,” the manipulation of final pay to boost pensions. Fire chiefs in Contra Costa County who retired with pensions far larger than their base pay have received national media attention.

A reform group is trying to put a two-tier initiative on the November ballot that would lower pension benefits for new state and local government hires and extend retirement ages.

A new poll released by the Public Policy Institute of California last week said two-thirds of Californians (67 percent) favor changing pensions for new public employees from monthly pensions to 401(k)-style individual investment plans.

“This level of support reflects a 6-point increase since we last asked this question in January 2005,” said PPIC. “Strong majorities across parties (particularly Republicans), regions, and demographic groups favor this proposal. Support increases with rising income.”

Reporter Ed Mendel covered the Capitol in Sacramento for nearly three decades, most recently for the San Diego Union-Tribune. More stories are at https://calpensions.com/ Posted 1 Feb 10

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107 Responses to “CHP union exec: lower pensions for new hires?”

  1. Tough Love Says:

    Quoting …”Pensions promised current employees and retirees are regarded as vested rights, protected by contract law, that cannot be reduced without providing something of equal value.”

    A a Private Sector taxpayer (who pay for the vast majority of your pensions) we’re getting REAL tire of statements like this.

    It may be one thing not to reduced pensions for accrued benefits associated with PAST years of service, but its entirely another matter to take the position that “vesting” means that for benefits NOT YET EARNED and ASSOCIATED with FUTURE years of service cannot be reduced for anyCURRENT employee …. even those just recently employed.

    Dear VOTERS … don’t buy this nonsense that is endlessly released by current workers who do not want their gravy train derailed. Any official “opinions” as such are also very suspect as generally having come from legislators & judges participating in these Plans and who would be negatively impacted by such changes.

    Whether it be accomplished by ballot initiative, constitutional amendment, of challenge in the FEDERAL courts (removing the conflicted parties from the decision-making process), it must be done.

    We MUST reduce the pension formula for FUTURE years of service for CURRENT (yes CURRENT) employees or we are financially doomed.

    Voters …get off your duff and DEMAND change !

  2. Whinenot Says:

    Hey Tough Love, so you’re advocating overturning agreements? If you are, what’s to keep me from ripping up my mortgage and unilaterally deciding to pay less? Or the mortgage company from raising my payment?
    When a person accepts a job with a governmental employer, we base our decision on the whole package, including the pensions we expect to receive years down the road. Despite your view of the world, I am significantly underpaid compared to what I can make in private sector employment. As it is, if the current proposals for state workers are implemented, many of us will leave. If your proposal were adopted, most of us would leave.
    That’s not to say the State of California couldn’t hire lower cost replacements. As things are now, maybe that would happen. But in a few years, those new-hires would leave as soon as the economy improves.
    So these proposals should be fully vetted and not crammed into place in a knee-jerk response to a global downturn. If they are, then all of us will suffer in the years to come.

  3. Tough Love Says:

    Dear Whinenot:

    The difference between your employment contract and your mortgage, is that the former was never an arms-length agreement with the two sides working for their respective constituents. You see, the Legislators are supposed to represent the TAXPAYERS’ interests, not the employees’ interests. That structure was successfully corrupted via a quid-pro-quo (you scratch my back, & I’ll scratch yours) and bribes from your union.

    Now go ahead … and stop paying your mortgage. And as you suggest you might do, leave your job and join the Private sector. You will be quite surprised …. what, no COLAs , etc., etc., etc., etc.

    By the way …. exactly WHY do you think your SOOOOOO dersirving of SOOOOO much MORE than those that pay for the vast majority of your pension & benefits ???

    Join the REST of the world … where your FUTURE is not guaranteed.

    We should afford you “reasonable and affordable” pensions & benefits, but not bankrupt everyone else so you can retire in great comfort 10-20 years earlier than those that pay your way.

    You need a little self-examination … the gross entitlement mentality you exhibit is quite disgusting.

  4. Joe Pensioner Says:

    You cry babies whining about our public pensions is pure jealousy, pure and simple. Before, when the economy was great, you money grubbing private sector people were making much more than us. Our pensions help make up the difference for our low pay. Now that there’s a downturn in the economy and your dumb ass is out of work, your trying to take it out on our pensions. Too bad. We’ve earned our pensions through dangerous career jobs (at least I have). Go out and get a job and quit your cryin.

  5. Tough Love Says:

    Dear Joe Pensioner:

    I suggest you save a large portion of each pension check … while your still getting it. At some point in the near future, it will become “script” instead of money.

    The grocer won’t accept that for very long. And, all YOUR “cryin” that “but I was promised” blah, blah, blah, will mean squat.

    When the money’s gone, its gone.

  6. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Just pay up as promised pal. If there’s not enough money, your taxes and the state’s contribution will probably have to be increased…….we’ve already earned it. It’s a done deal. Ever heard of “Protected by Law” ?. These latest formulas were blessed by the governor, the legislature, the unions and CalPERS. Sorry your pissed off about missing the boat in life and being on the outside looking in. As far as new hires, that’s left to be seen. It’s up to the governor, legislature and unions to negotiate a deal for them, not you and your group of crybabies. CalPERS….$202.4 billion. That’s a lot of money people have been failing to get their hands on for a long time, and that includes the governor pal. The only thing I’ve agreed with a little from you people is that maybe the working age should be extended a little in the future to maybe age 55 for safety and 60 for misc…..that’s it. You’ll have a tough sell for the rest.

  7. Tough Love Says:

    Quoting Joe Pensioner: “Just pay up as promised pal. If there’s not enough money, your taxes and the state’s contribution will probably have to be increased…….we’ve already earned it.”

    Gee …. Do I hear the greedy Civil Servant “entitlement mentality” hear ?

    Another quote …”The only thing I’ve agreed with a little from you people is that maybe the working age should be extended a little in the future to maybe age 55 for safety and 60 for misc…..that’s it.”

    Did you notice the “from you people” words ?

    Now is that nice, talking down to the people (TAXPAYERS) who you are SOOOO dependent on for YOUR future.

    Dear taxpayers … this guy (and the rest of his GREEDY ilk) really need as wakeup call. Lets find away to renege on ALL their “promises” !

    Remember, we (the TAXPAYERS) were the ones THEY were screwing by the quid-pro-quo (you scratch my back & I’ll scratch yours) and bribes to get politicians to approve those grossly excessive Pensions & retiree benefits approved.

    Time to give it back to THEM.

  8. Joe Pensioner Says:

    The taxpayers have chosen not to treat badly and kick around police, fire, Caltrans, Dept of Corrections…. etc……(the list goes on and on), in the manner of which you speak, because when idiots like you commit a crime, start your house on fire, spill something on the highway, or are in prison, they like us to be there taking care of business. It’s called “Public Service”. For example, I’d like to see you guarding one of those dirt bag prisoners, or running across the highway to retrieve something out of the lanes or patrolling a crime ridden neighborhood.

    I have no idea what you do for a living (probably a clueless pencil pusher like mccauley), but reneging on legally binding collective bargaining agreements is not the answer….(only in your twisted mind)…..but fulfilling the collective bargaining agreement, is. Like I said, it’s pure jealousy now that the economy has dipped and probably because you don’t have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Plus, a fact your probably unaware of, is that half that money was contributed by me during my 36 year career as a proud public servant. Your the one who better start saving for your own retirement and quit worrying about us. We’ve already worked our careers and now you have the audacity to dream of pulling the carpet out from under us.

    Why do you think all these proponents, like mccauley, & fritz fail time after time…..it’s because not enough idiots like you sign there petitions that disrespect public servants. The taxpayers will not tolerate groups like yours. They love public servants for providing vital services. If you still don’t have a clue, read the first paragraph again.

    Signed,
    A Proud Public Servant
    Serving the Public for Over 36 years

  9. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Plus, if the story is true, that CHP union exec is a low life, backstabbing traitor to state employees who should be ashamed of himself and removed from his position. Hamm, your a “hamm” alright and a disgrace. I have a lot of CHP buddies that are truly ashamed of your position. I wonder how you can sleep at night.

    Come on, send me a reply.

  10. Tough Love Says:

    Dear Joe Pensioner:

    Yeah … keep telling yourself that “taxpayers” support you. You must be on drugs. As they better understand how you & your union have ripped them off by buying the politicians your comupence will be short and swift.

    I suggest you save those big $$$ your getting as the spigot will get cut off sooner than you expect.

    Hamm’s got more brains than you’ll ever have. At least he can recognize an untenable position. You are SOOOO blinded by your GREED and arrogance you cannot see past you nose.

  11. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Just keep my check coming asshole. No reneging will be allowed by nitwits like you.

  12. Tough Love Says:

    And to think they let YOU carry a gun… pathetic !

  13. Joe Pensioner Says:

    and I know how to handle it too…………don’t you forget it either.

  14. Joe Pensioner Says:

    You little shit heads start messing with our pensions & benefits, you can expect the very best from me…..and if I ever see you on the street, I’ll give you a little example of it too. Mind your own fucking business.

  15. Joe Pensioner Says:

    I assumed you are of the male gender. IF….. you are a female, I apologize.

  16. Tough Love Says:

    Quoting …”You little shit heads start messing with our pensions & benefits, you can expect the very best from me…..and if I ever see you on the street, I’ll give you a little example of it too. Mind your own fucking business.”

    Yhe vast majority of your pension and ALL your retiree healthcare is paid for with Taxpayer dollars.

    It sure is OUR business.

  17. Joe Pensioner Says:

    We provided the public service, now it’s time for you to pay up. Reneging will not happen. A lot of our money comes from CalPERS investment returns, and both State and Employee contributions, for which I’m a taxpayer too. You won’t succeed in changing existing pensions, that’s a done deal. The only chance you’ll have going forward, is maybe changing the retirement ages and making us work a little longer……maybe.

    If the State would get rid of all the lame and lazy social programs in this State, including giving benefits to illegal aliens sneaking under the fence illegally into this state, there would be plenty of money for State contributions, which is only $3.5 billion toward pensions. This is just one of the reasons the State is going broke and you want to take it out on us poor old pensioners. It’s not going to happen. You’ve been brainwashed by that $100,000 club. It only represents less then 1% of retirees. You should be ashamed of yourself. Don’t you have anything better to do in life then to pick on us poor old pensioners? You’ll have to learn the hard way. I’ll give you the same advise I give the other boneheads:

    “GOD, GRANT ME THE SERENITY TO ACCEPT THE THINGS I CAN NOT CHANGE, COURAGE TO CHANGE THE THINGS I CAN, AND THE WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE”

  18. Tough Love Says:

    To Joe:

    I also don’t expect to change the pensions for those ALREADY retired. Although that still doesn’t give you 100% safety, as the money could still run out, or a severe shortfall could possibly call for cutbacks.

    What REALLY is necessary is a reduction in the pension formula not only for NEW employees, but for FUTURE years of service for CURRENT employees. That WILL happen as the severty of the current financial situation becomes more clear.

    Oh, and I got a REAL kick out of your …”us poor old pensioners” comment. 99% of California’s population would give their right arm to be as “poor” as you guys.

  19. Joe Pensioner Says:

    You proven my point exactly. Don’t forget that less then 1% of us are in that $100,000 a year club. When the economy is fine you money grubbers from the private sector are happy as can be with your 401k’s and big salaries. Public pensions were never a problem and seldom talked about. State wages have always been behind the private sector and our best compensation is the retirement benefits. Well, the shoe’s kind of on the other foot now, isn’t it……..well, too bad. All of a sudden, you people are cry babies because your out of a job and we’ve stuck with it. Kind of like the tortoise and the hare story. We’ve earned our retirement benefits. They came along with the job when we started from the Governor, the Legislature and CalPERS. Don’t make the hard working public servants the bad guys here. If you stop and think about it, you people are only on your soap box now because of the economic downturn and people are out of work while we’re collecting our pensions. As I said earlier, it’s pure jealousy, that’s the whole thing going on right now. I don’t like to see people out of work either, but I stuck with it for 36 years. You don’t get rich working for the State, but the retirement benefits are nice. As it looks now, the State will have to contribute more to the pension plan along with the employees. We’ll see how it plays out. I know you have an uphill battle, as Marcia Fritz puts it and I’ll be fighting you every step of the way for current employees too.

  20. ironclad Says:

    Quoting …”Pensions promised current employees and retirees are regarded as vested rights, protected by contract law, that cannot be reduced without providing something of equal value.”

    A a Private Sector taxpayer (who pay for the vast majority of your pensions) we’re getting REAL tire of statements like this.

    TOUGH LOVE,
    TOO BAD, GET OVER IT, TEST IT IN COURT, YOU’LL LOSE AND THEN HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO IN YOUR PATHETIC LIFE…

  21. Joe Pensioner Says:

    I can tell your getting very frustrated from trying to carry on a challenging conversation from someone who is giving you a reality check to your “cause”. You have no money to fight the big public employee unions in court. We pay our dues so they can defend us from dip shits like you guys and your initiatives. Jealousy will eat you up inside. I have my opinion of you cry baby money grubbers too. I’m just giving you the lecture and reality check you need. I’m trying to figure out if your a male or female, and I think I know by your short temper and displaying capital letters in a frustrating rage. Only a female would type that way. And the way they get mad win their getting their ass kick during a conversation. I’ve seen it a thousand times. It’s a typical female mentality alright, stubborn and think they can win every argument with a man. Get a reality check lady, your over your head. We’ll see who wins and loses. As I said cry baby, learn this phrase:

    “GOD, GRANT ME THE SERENITY TO ACCEPT THE THINGS I CAN NOT CHANGE, COURAGE TO CHANGE THE THINGS I CAN, AND THE WISDOM TO KNOW THE DIFFERENCE”

  22. Joe Pensioner Says:

    I think I got tough love and ironclad’s comments mixed up. I thought it was tough love talking with the caps. I think ironclad is for public employees.

  23. Joe Pensioner Says:

    You people better get started in front of Walmart with your petitions and clipboards, because you have Mt, Everest to climb in trying to screw public servants, such as police, firefighters, judges, and legislatures out of their pensions, not to mention fighting the public employee unions into eternity. Good luck with that one. CalPERS has been around in the pension business for over 75 years and it will certainly take a lot more than all you snivling snoty little cry babies to derail it.

    Don’t worry, when the economy gets better, public pensions won’t be an issue any longer and you can cry and whine about another issue.

  24. Poor Peasant & Veteran Says:

    I’m a military veteran (Marine Corps.), and college educated (two degrees). I decided to come to work for the State of California Department of Corrections. I serve proudly as a correctional officer as I did when I graduated high school and I swore to put my life on the line to serve my country (Persian Gulf War). After working for three years for the State of California I have changed my mind. I no longer want to work for a state where the governor, legislators, taxpayers, and media who dislike someone who puts their life on the line daily. All I wanted was to provide for my community and my family. I am hanging up my boots. Yes, I WILL QUIT (I’ve never quit anything in my life before), but not before I am vested in the next two years. I am taking my extremely small pension that I’ve earned and I am moving to another state where people appreciate law enforcement and I can take care of my family, SAFELY. The legislators can cut the pay, benefits, holidays and anything else they can get their hands on to save a buck, but when educated, and very talented people start to leave and you have to hire new employees, please don’t be appalled with the type of employee you will get. I can assure you it won’t be what you have now. Sit back and watch the lawsuits roll in when these uneducated people start to make major mistakes. What’s going to happen when this person cuts corners or can’t count his inmates properly and one gets out and kills a member of your family. The governor has already started by releasing 6,000 inmates to save a buck and I am sure you know what the outcome is going to be in the long run. The repercussions will be huge when the state decides to cut benefits and pay. I’ve already seen extremely talented and smart co-workers leave or retire and no one seems to want to step up to take on a miserable job. I can only imagine what it will be like in the near future when they cut pay and benefits. I envision a fast-food worker watching over inmates. Good Luck and Semper Fi to all of my brothers and sisters out there! God help The State of California.

  25. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Well said. A friend of mine is retired DOC and feels the same way. As a fellow State Worker and Navy Veteran myself, you have my respect for serving. A lot of these punks kids today don’t appreciate veterans too much, because they don’t have to serve. Thanks for serving. I really think it’s a small percentage of weasels and jealous cry babies that don’t fully appreciate our deserved pensions. Try to hang in there, we need good employees and we will prevail over those who are trying to ruin our great State.

  26. Iron Love / ToOugh Clad Says:

    The politicians have ALREADY ruined California, and your UNIONs put them (and keep them) there.

    When it all collapses (and it WILL), you can you look in the mirror for whom to blame.

  27. Joe Pensioner Says:

    If you don’t like California, get the fuck out and move somewhere else. You don’t your ass from a hole in the ground. We don’t need your kind around stirring up trouble and sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong. I think it’s a great State that has treated me pretty well. You know why? because I’ve dedicated my entire life working as a public servant, including my father, grandfather and currently my son. It’s only you people that are a pain in the ass and like a rock in everybody’s shoe. Go out and get a real job and quit your whining.

    I guess I’ll have to repeat myself since your too thick headed to read it or understand. Dedicated public servants are NOT to blame. We’re the ones that have provided vital public services all these years to all Californians, including your dumbass. Who do you think is on the police beat, fighting fires and watching our prisoners….it’s sure not your weak ass. Ever heard of collective bargaining. The current formulas have been negotiated by the unions, past governors, the legislature and implemented under contract by CalPERS. It’s only an issue now because of the economy. The State should be using every tool available to them to recruit and retain great employees that serve the people well, not tear down what it’s taken years to get too.

    The taxpayers have chosen not to treat badly and kick around police, fire, Caltrans, Dept of Corrections…. etc……(the list goes on and on), in the manner of which you speak, because when idiots like you commit a crime, start your house on fire, spill something on the highway, or are in prison, they like us to be there taking care of business. It’s called “Public Service”. For example, I’d like to see you guarding one of those dirt bag prisoners, or running across the highway to retrieve something out of the lanes or patrolling a crime ridden neighborhood.

    I have no idea what you do for a living (probably a clueless pencil pusher like mccauley), but reneging on legally binding collective bargaining agreements is not the answer….(only in your twisted mind)…..but fulfilling the collective bargaining agreement, is. Like I said, it’s pure jealousy now that the economy has dipped and probably because you don’t have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Plus, a fact your probably unaware of, is that half that money was contributed by me during my 36 year career as a proud public servant. Your the one who better start saving for your own retirement and quit worrying about us. We’ve already worked our careers and now you have the audacity to dream of pulling the carpet out from under us.

    Why do you think all these proponents, like mccauley, & fritz fail time after time…..it’s because not enough idiots like you sign there petitions that disrespect public servants. The taxpayers will not tolerate groups like yours. They love public servants for providing vital services. If you still don’t have a clue, read the first paragraph again.

    You want some more lecturing, I’ve got plenty left, so you make sure you reply with some stupid comment of which you know nothing about while your sitting behind some pussy desk trying to change what we have taken years to get.

  28. Touch Love Says:

    Lets walk through your points one at a time:

    Quoting …”We don’t need your kind around stirring up trouble and sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong. ”

    Translation …. Stop EDUCATING the taxpayers as to how we have been so grossly ripping them off for so long. If you keep it up they might actually muster up enough support to stop our gravy train.

    Quoting …”you know why? because I’ve dedicated my entire life working as a public servant, including my father, grandfather and currently my son.”

    My lord, its a family affair . The whole family has existed for generations on the taxpayers’ dime !

    Quoting …”Ever heard of collective bargaining. The current formulas have been negotiated by the unions, past governors, the legislature and implemented under contract by CalPERS.”

    Via your union’s bribery & corruption of the system of collective bargaining, no one at the negotiating table ever truly resented the interests of the taxpayers.

    Quoting …”reneging on legally binding collective bargaining agreements is not the answer…”

    You might have a point IF the contracts were true arms-length negotiations, but we BOTH know very well that they never were. No dishonor at all in reneging on such phony one-sided deals.

    Quoting …”idiots like you sign there petitions that disrespect public servants. ”

    So you also have a problem with Constitutional free speech ?

    Quoting …”The taxpayers will not tolerate groups like yours. They love public servants for providing vital services.”

    Knowlegable (non-Civil-Servant) Taxpayers will revolt as they become more educated as to the extent they have been ripped off by Public Servants. I see a Civil Servant vs Private Sector Taxpayer Civil War in the not-too-distant future

  29. Joe Pensioner Says:

    When you said “my lord” i know it’s woman I’m talking to now.

    But at least I see my point sunk in.

    A whole family of proud hard working public servants, no pencil pushers here.

    “Via your union’s bribery & corruption of the system of collective bargaining”

    I’d like to see you prove some of your accusations

    Next time you need a public servant, I hope you appreciate them.

    Cry all you want, pensions have always been part of the job and I don’t see them stopping anytime in the near future. Get over it.

  30. Poor Peasant & Veteran Says:

    Many taxpayers would like to blame the state employees for the financial crisis currently going on, but if they would take a minute and educate themselves they could see truly where the problem lies. From my side this is the ridiculous bullshit that I see:

    1. We do daily transports of inmates to sleep apnea centers because the inmates are not sleeping good. WHAT? Yes, you heard me. These inmates go out daily to these centers to find out why they are not sleeping good in prison. Ask your legislators why we pay for services like this. Please don’t forget! When these inmates have to spend three days at the sleep centers, we have to provide 24 hour coverage for these criminals, and by law we have to have two officers per inmate.

    2. We do daily transports of inmates to eye centers where they have state of the art eye surgeries (cataract removal and lens replacement). The inmates that I have taken to these clinics are wards of the state because they have committed a vicious sexual act with children, women, or an animal. Yes, animals (ex. sodomy with a canine, etc.), I asked the doctor what it costs for this type of surgery and he told me it runs between $14,000 to $15,000 per eye. We took out six inmates for this type of surgery to be performed that day. Another inmate was having Lasik eye surgery at a cost of $6,000. Don’t forget the officers that have to provide coverage. Add that expense on too. These criminals don’t pay a penny for their services.

    3. We allow conjugal visits for inmates. Let me ask you this. Who pays for the birth and medical costs associated when an inmate (male or female) get pregnant? The majority are on welfare or don’t have any type of financial support for these associated costs. Guess what? The taxpayer, YOU and I, pick up these costs. Most people think no big deal the state has money. Guess what? The state is now broke and the working class have no more money to give because of policies like these. Perfect example: OCTOMOM who had herself impregnated and ended up having eight children knowing darn well she couldn’t provide for these children. So who picks up these costs? You got it, we do, the taxpayers. Guess what? California is broke because of policies like these.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadya_Suleman

    Have you heard of the Inmate Bill of Rights? The link is below. You will be absolutely amazed and appalled, unless you are one of those people who believe someone who is a cold blooded murderer shouldn’t be punished for their crimes? Read it and educate yourself (Tough Love). Don’t blame the state workers for our politicians huge mistakes and problems.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n25_v10/ai_15504732/

    The taxpayers and politicians would like to blame it on the state worker, but if you live it and see it daily like I do, then I promise you that you are very wrong.

  31. Touch Love Says:

    All true, EVERY bid of what you’ve said.

    Now, how does that justify or reverse the financial impact of your “unsustainable” (using the word of California’s chief Actuary) and overly generous pensions & benefits ?

  32. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Thanks fellow Veteran. There are too many “Lame and Lazy” social programs in this State. We need a new Governor that has the balls to correct some of this crap and cut out the waste. Arnold tried, but found out it’s not so easy. Let them work for a living like we have. The facts you’ve mentioned will help these cry babies bring their heads out of the sand and see the real problem in this State. Who do they think perform these vital services for the people of California. Police, Fire, Caltrans, & Dept. of Corrections do, (just to name a few). That’s why they will be defeated from trying to ruin our great State. If we cut out just half the waste, there would not be a money problem in this State and they know it.

  33. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Get your head out of the sand tough love. Do the math for existing and widely approved retirement formulas. It’s a simple calculation. Better yet, answer this one question that will explain it all. Not too long ago, State pensions were never a problem, never a concern and seldom ever talked about. Why is it all of sudden since the economy has dipped and the State is broke and wasted too much money on all these lame and lazy social programs (that you probably support), everyone is looking at State Employees as the bad guys and are now jealous of our pensions ? The answer is obvious to me. Less than 1% are in that $100,000 club. The other 99% have normal pensions. As I said, get your head out of the sand, for a polite term.

  34. Joe Pensioner Says:

    What you should be working on tough love, is cutting all the waste out of State Government and quit whining about Public Servants. You can’t even see where the problem is, or are too stubborn or unwilling to see it. Poor Peasant & veteran just explained part of the problem to you. But that kind of waste is just the tip of the iceberg. Nobody has the balls to take the real necessary steps to correct things in this State. State employees have and are, currently working their career’s in agreement with our collective bargaining contracts, approved by Governor’s, the Legislature and CalPERS, no matter if you like it or not. Their too generous only by your opinion. Do you expect us to retire on $100. a month to make you happy? You are working in the wrong direction and wasting your time, but are very stubborn to realize it.

  35. Touch Love Says:

    Without even a close second, the excessive and unsustainable Public Sector Pensions & Benefits will be the financial undoing of California, add likely Mass, Mich, NY, and NJ +++

    All the other stuff is indeed an unnecessary waste …. unnecessary incarceration of non-voilent offenders, excessive welfare, etc., but financially, these pale in comparison the above.

  36. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Tough lover, you didn’t read what I wrote, did you ? or it’s not sinking in. Back up a bit. First of all, It is absolutely imperative that we get rid of the waste in State Government like I just said. Don’t you see the bigger picture of what’s strangling the budget of this State?, it’s not the pensions. Pensions are the direct result of agreed apon collective bargaining employee contracts from great public servants that provide vital services to the taxpayers. You can’t take our money and give it to illegal aliens and the lame and lazy, it’s not going to happen.

    Here’s part of the solution TL, just to start with:

    1. Cut the waste from State Government
    (I can only imagine how much money that would
    save)

    2. Stop the illegals from entering our State under the
    fence and get rid of the 26,000,000 that are here
    right now and we’re paying for. (more money
    saved)

    3. Make the 40% of the people that work for cash
    under the table, pay their taxes like I do. (a ton of
    revenue)

    4. Drastically cut the BS that Poor Peasant mentioned
    and half the other lame and lazy programs that
    you agreed with.

    5. See, now there’s plenty of money and you don’t
    have to whine about our deserved pensions that
    we worked long and hard for under dangerous
    conditions. Your priorities are all screwed up.

  37. Touch Love Says:

    You argue that I’m not listening……

    Neither are you. I agree with the need to eliminate the waste that you mention, but it STILL does NOT justify the excessive pensions & benefits that you guys get …. negotiated or not.

    Remember, I (and most non-Civil-Servants) have come to understand that these “negotiations” were never really arms-lenght negotiations where the representative of the two sides were truly representing the best interests of their constituents. Clearly, BOTH sides had the best interests of the EMPLOYEES in mind … NEITHER really represented the TAXPAYERS.

  38. Joe Pensioner Says:

    That’s a bunch of baloney, Are you implying the Governor, the Legislature and CalPERS blindly approved these formulas and had their head of their asses and a gun to their head ? They know we must recruit and retain highly skilled people for this State. Who do you think the Governor and the Legislature represent, if it’s not the TAXPAYERS ?????? The taxpayers leave it to them to do the right thing and they have. If the taxpayer were at the bargaining table, we’d probably get $5.00 an hour in retirement. That’s why it’s left to professional negotiators to iron out these union contracts. I’m a taxpayer too and these people deserve good retirements for the dangerous work they do for the TAXPAYERS and now it’s time to pay up. You’ll have to find the money from somewhere and the thing to do is cut the waste in government. Can you imagine someone like you at the bargaining table. Police, Fire etc…. would get a lousy retirement pension and then you’d see who you’d get to fill these dangerous jobs. The next time you call the police, Barney Fife will be at your door.

    You don’t even have the decency to acknowledge or appreciate or say anything nice about Civil Servants, for putting their lives on the line for you everyday, like Police, Firefighters, Caltrans, Dept. of Corrections
    etc… If they earn big salaries, it’s because they have a lot of responsibility and it equates to approved retirement formulas. The taxpayers want and need highly competent personnel to provide them service, don’t cut yourselves short. You better thank God there’s people out there that are protecting us, I know I do, and it’s them who have the safety retirements I mentioned.

  39. Touch Love Says:

    I’m starting to believe that you really ARE clueless …

    Politicians care little about ANYTHING except getting re-elected, which means votes & campaign contributions. They freely approve your excessive pensions & benefits to get your, and especially, your UNIONS” money and voter support.

  40. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Your pretty naive. First of all, who gives a shit what you proponents & bean counters think anyway. You’ve never had a dangerous job in your lives, just a bean counter job behind a desk, so your the one that’s really clueless. It’s up to the Governor, and the Legislature, (who serve the taxpayers), CalPERS and the unions to decide these things, not you guys.

    If you don’t like it, go stand out in front of Walmart with mccauley and fritz with your petition and clipboards and see who you can get to sign it. That’s why fritz and mccauley have failed time and time again, because not enough taxpayers will sign. You know why?, because they want competent public servants to serve them and their not going to screw us over. None of you realize that.

    So, go right now and stand in front of Walmart and quit pestering me with all your BS.

  41. Touch Love Says:

    As I said much earlier …

    I suggest you save a large portion of each pension check … while your still getting it. At some point in the near future, it will become “script” instead of money.

    When the money’s gone, its gone.

  42. Joe Pensioner Says:

    I hope your not an idiot like mccauley, who wants to pass an initiative that imposes a 35% tax on any pension income, (including social security income) in excess of $40,000….(that includes your grandparents baby). Because he knows nothing else is working. Go ask grandpa and grandma if they like that idea. And even with that one, he doesn’t have a clue why he can never get enough signatures….duh. He fails over and over. That involves a lot of people. He’s clueless too and is just another bean counter sitting behind a desk that has never held a dangerous job in his life either. I’d have more respect for you people if you had a clue what a dangerous job for the State of California was. You might appreciate us a little more.

  43. Joe Pensioner Says:

    You better worry about the US Federal Government and what that idiot (you elected) is doing to our country. Why don’t you go to Washington and fight with those people about the deficit and how much their spending, talk about script. The way it’s going, the dollar’s going to collapse and the government will give you $.20 on the dollar for any FDIC deposits. As I said, your priorities are all screwed up.

  44. Touch Love Says:

    Quoting …”You better worry about the US Federal Government and what that idiot (you elected) is doing to our country. Why don’t you go to Washington and fight with those people about the deficit and how much their spending, talk about script. The way it’s going, the dollar’s going to collapse and the government will give you $.20 on the dollar for any FDIC deposits.”

    Now you got correct…

  45. Touch Love Says:

    Quoting …”You better worry about the US Federal Government and what that idiot (you elected) is doing to our country. Why don’t you go to Washington and fight with those people about the deficit and how much their spending, talk about script. The way it’s going, the dollar’s going to collapse and the government will give you $.20 on the dollar for any FDIC deposits.”

    Now you got it correct…

  46. Joe Pensioner Says:

    I’ve been correct all along. Let me know if your interested in a State job, I still have some good connections. Can you handle a weapon ?

    Maybe you can get one of those 3% at 50 safety retirement packages.

  47. Touch Love Says:

    For anyone hired today with the 3%@50 who expects it to still be there when they retire, I have a nice bridge I’d like to sell them.

  48. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Touch love, you still around ? No hot date tonight?…… guess not.

    That bridge will be pretty expensive TL. Don’t bet on their pensions not being there. I guess you forgot about the great depression. Existing contracts stood their ground in 1929 even after the fall of wall st and unemployment was 25% average. You better do your homework before you talk. Our great beautiful country always bounces back, so have some faith. Where you born here ? Are you old enough to remember that far back? I’m not, but I read a lot. You might want to think about jumping off that bridge right now if their an active employee “today”. It’s already a done deal for current employees existing under collective bargaining employment agreements and especially after they’re vested. The only thing that changes things, is if the Legislature adopts legislation to change formulas, and it would apply to “New” hires only, hired after the legislation take-effect date, which is either January 1 or July 1 (start of the Fiscal year). What ever is in place at the time. You also better read “The California Pension Protection Act of 1992”. It will cost the State more money to fight pensions in court then it would save in money. Reneging will not be profitable.

  49. Poor Peasant & Veteran Says:

    You asked me how does that justify or reverse the financial impact of our “unsustainable” (using the word of California’s chief Actuary) and overly generous pensions & benefits?

    I have nothing to hide. The pay and benefits that we receive are average throughout the United States for the very dangerous type of work we do. Everyday I step through the gates of the prison I ask myself is this the day I don’t go home to my wife or children. Someone has to step up and do this job. The average person would crumble under the type of pressure you have in a prison environment. It’s my duty to step in between the staff being assaulted by an inmate, or better yet another inmate being assaulted by two or more inmates.

    I encourage people like you (Touch Love) to check out what you call an overly generous pay and benefit package. Once again, educate yourself with hard data facts. When reviewing the pay scale don’t forget it takes seven years to get to the top pay scale. Don’t believe everything you hear from the media outlets. Oh yeah! The overtime that the media talks about is completely over exaggerated. The overtime is due to the ridiculous medical services that we have to provide (see my earlier post above). Personally, I would like to pass on overtime and I would rather go home to my family to spend my time with them, but once again someone has to take these inmates to the hospital when they decide to shank each other.

    http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Career_Opportunities/POR/Pay.html

    After you have reviewed what you call an overly generous pay and benefit package you need to take this into consideration. The average life span of a correctional officer is between 58 and 59 years old. This extremely stressful job sucks the life out of you, literally.

    http://www.prisoncommission.org/public_hearing_3_witness_hepner.asp

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_officer

    http://law.jrank.org/pages/1791/Prisons-Correctional-Officers-Correctional-officer-stress.html

    Most correctional officers don’t live long enough after they retire to collect very much of the benefits that they so rightfully deserve. This includes other branches of law enforcement because their job is just as stressful. So please don’t preach to me until you have worked this job. In fact I recommend that you step up and become a correctional officer. Don’t worry, there are no age limitations because if they did have age limitations they won’t have anybody apply to do this miserable job. Here is the link to apply:

    http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/Career_Opportunities/POR/docs/CO_YCO_YCC_Bulletin.pdf

    Good luck and be sure to tell all of your friends to apply too because we sure need new officers to fill all the vacancies.

  50. Touch Love Says:

    Joe, Just stumbled onto this (below) quote in a blog today …. what do you think ?

    “Government jobs only exist by taking money from tax payers to fund them. That means there are more vampires that blood donors.”

  51. Touch Love Says:

    Jo, I couldn’t resist. Here’s another one… (notice the part about formula reductions for CURRENT employees … JUST what I have been saying)

    “A recent study published by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), an association of state legislators, entitled State Pension Funds Fall Off a Cliff, discusses the losses that state government pensions have taken and pushes governments to further reform their pension systems. The authors argue that the only viable long-term solution is to replace current defined benefit plans with 401(k)-style defined contribution plans for new employees. In addition to pursuing a defined contribution approach, many governments may seek retiree benefit reductions within the defined benefit schema. Milwaukee County, for example, has included a provision in its 2010 budget extending the normal retirement age from 60 to 64 for new employees and reducing the pension multiplier from 2% to 1.6% for new employees and for future years of service for existing employees. Though this has only been implemented so far for non-union employees, it reflects the types of adjustments being sought as governments become more strapped for cash.”

  52. Touch Love Says:

    One more … (the best yet) after discussing cuts elsewhere including Colorado and Massachusetts:

    “The trends discussed above indicate that public sector employees and retirees should brace themselves for significant reductions in retirement benefits. Whether that’s fair is subject to debate, but given the severe loss of assets experienced by many public pension funds, it may well be a necessity.”

  53. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Touch Love, when you work and provide vital public services for the taxpayers, that’s who pays you……..duh.
    Your on the ball today.

    We’re all taxpayers, at least I am.

  54. Joe Pensioner Says:

    TL, climbing Mt. Everest might be an easier accomplishment for you people. I told you what the answer was. Get rid of all the waste in State Government, including all the lame and lazy social programs and there will be plenty of money. Hiring highly trained and competent public servants is more important then all the welfare fraud going on, not to mention all the other waste.

  55. Touch Love Says:

    Its too bad that Civil Servants (collectively) pay only 10% of any tax increases but reap 90% of the benefits.

  56. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Quote……..“Government jobs only exist by taking money from tax payers to fund them.

    That means there are more vampires that blood donors.”
    _______________________________________________________

    TL, you better do the math on that statement….I won’t embarrass you.

  57. Joe Pensioner Says:

    TL

    Quote……”Though this has only been implemented so far for non-union employees, it reflects the types of adjustments being sought as governments become more strapped for cash.”

    Answer…….Cut the waste and “get more cash”

  58. Joe Pensioner Says:

    TL

    Existing retirement benefits are a done deal. They are vested rights and protected by law. Don’t believe everything you read……and you have Mt Everest to climb in getting anything changed.

  59. Touch Love Says:

    Its melting ……… quickly.

  60. Joe Pensioner Says:

    TL

    Quote………..”Its too bad that Civil Servants (collectively) pay only 10% of any tax increases but reap 90% of the benefits”

    What the hell are you talking about now ? That’s the first I’ve heard of that one. I’m starting to think you’re on drugs. Are you a tweaker?

  61. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Keep my check coming sweetheart…………

  62. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Good point Poor Peasant. TL doesn’t know what to say now. She’s probably hiding under her soft desk or pushing her pencil. She has no clue anyway what it’s like to have a dangerous job.

    I survived 36 years with Caltrans working next to the freeways and running across them to retrieve things out of the road. Me and another employee even got hit by a gravel truck that almost killed us. But I gotta hand it to you, I don’t think the average person would be cut out to be a prison guard.

    Enjoy your pension, you deserve it.

  63. Touch Love Says:

    Let em explain my earlier Quote … ”Its too bad that Civil Servants (collectively) pay only 10% of any tax increases but reap 90% of the benefits”

    Lets say taxes must be raised (90% of which is needed to help fund your underfunded pensions & benefits … the most common reason for increases these days … with the remaining 10% to fund other regular items) to generate $10 Million in total, and Civil Servants represent 10% of of all taxpayers.

    Then the Civil Servants would pay a total of 10% x $10 Million = $1 Million of the additional $10 Million of taxes raised with Private Sector Taxpayers paying the $9 Million balance.

    But if the REASON for 90% of the tax increase is to fund your pension …… VOILA, you get 90% the benefits of the tax increase, but only paid for 10% of it.

    Concentrate (and keep an open mind), it’s not that difficult to understand.

  64. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Well, thanks for the tax break TL, us poor old pensioners need it.

  65. Touch Love Says:

    But it just another reason to reduce the pension formula … and endless shoveling of Private Sector “wealth” into the pockets of Civil Servants.

    The EDUCATION of the voter will go on … change will come …SOON.

  66. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Doesn’t obama say to redistribute the wealth. So, it’s about time we got some of the pie for a change. The private sector money grubbers have always been ahead of us. You know, like the tortoise and the hare story. Didn’t your mommy tell you that story when you were little, how the turtle won the race. We’re just collecting on the working agreement. A pension instead of high salaries all these years. Don’t worry, I think your 401K will recover a little.

    Quote…..”change will come …SOON”.

    We’ll see what you get accomplished. You might want to start climbing Mt Everest now.

  67. Touch Love Says:

    Actually, I’d love to (would be quite an adventure) …. but that thin air at 25,000 ft is problematic

  68. Touch Love Says:

    Joe, Check out the quote I just found (re California)…its a hoot …

    “Very sad. We lived there for 15 years. I loved the state. Had to move out in 1998 could not afford it. My friend is one who will retire at 50 he is a Prison Guard. I have to say I envy him. Why should I have educated myself through hard work in computers. All I needed to do was follow him and watch the caged animals and be rich when I retire.”

  69. Joe Pensioner Says:

    WHAT !!!!! YOU DON’T EVEN LIVE IN CALIFORNIA ????? Your on a computer in another State sticking your nose into our business??? Now I’ve heard it all. You are really something TL.

    Is he still your friend ? Does he know your on a vicious rampage against Public Servants in California, trying to screw us out of our pensions ? How about giving me his email address, I’ll bring him up to speed.

    Rich ? come on, it’s just a modest retirement for all the crap he’s gone through and endured. Go back and read “Poor Peasants” remarks about how the job as a prison guard sucks the life out of you. His pension should be much more then it is going to be. Well, we’ll have to work on raising the formulas. At least your getting a little taste of reality by knowing a Public Servant in California. Maybe he’ll soften the blow and slow your momentous rage against us. I bet he could tell you some real horror stories. A job for the very few. What does he think of your cause ?

    You can thank your lucky stars that there are people like him around willing to do the job and keep these animals in a their cages, so they’re not breaking into your house at night while your sleeping in your nice soft, warm bed…..something to think about TL. Tell him thanks for me.

  70. Touch Love Says:

    Hi Joe, There is s Blogger (quite the global economist) who publishes regularly. One of the issues he addresses is the financial problems states and cities are now facing, with his suggestions for solutions. Take a look, and read though the comments (today’s link is below). It will take a bit of time, but perhaps you will come out of it with a somewhat diminished sense of entitlement.

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2010/02/california-sheriff-takes-home-640000.html

  71. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Quote……….”In an interesting twist, San Luis Obispo County Under Sheriff Steve Bolts is taking home between $640,000 and $772,000 this year in retirement benefits and an hourly salary, while his boss, Sheriff Pat Hedges, takes home $340,000, according to calculations based on dates provided by Bolts”.

    Somethings wrong with that math, TL. The story is inaccurate. First of all, common sense should tell you that the under sheriff doesn’t make twice as mush as the Sheriff and as far as CalPERS goes, Bruce Malkenhurst is at the top of the list in retirement. You also better read the contributions and accomplishments Bruce made, before you criticize him. Why aren’t you up in Washington protesting about those CEO’s taking big bonuses using your tax dollars? That’s where you should be kicking up a fuss.

    I think you want all public servants to retire at $5.00 an hour. Sorry.

  72. Touch Love Says:

    Quoting …”Why aren’t you up in Washington protesting about those CEO’s taking big bonuses using your tax dollars? That’s where you should be kicking up a fuss.”

    Oh this does have me pissed ….. particularly the Gov’ts bailout of AIG with 100% payoff of the CDSs (Creditd Defualt swaps). Essentially the Gov’t made Goldman Sachs and Credit Swisse 100% whole while EVERYONE else was getting killed.

    In this ONE instance, our Gov’t literally threw away at least $25 Billion they could have saved by demanding a haircut on the payouts to these two investment banks.

  73. Touch Love Says:

    Joe, You obviously only read the very top portion in my above link. Please read the whole thing and the comments. Its very enlightening, and may even change your thinking a bit.

  74. Joe Pensioner Says:

    So, what are you doing about it, Miss Taxpayer ? Do you write to your Senators? Representatives?, the Governor?

  75. Joe Pensioner Says:

    I really truly think you believe that and it’s your excuse for justifying your cause. Any attempt by people or groups to take benefits away from dedicated public servants is cowardly in my book and will not be tolerated. The next thing you’ll want to do is to take away our health care and then something else, and then something else after that. It opens the door for people to think they can do what ever they want to us without a fight. That’s why Unions were formed. Why would we just throw up their arms and give up benefits like that? We’ve fought too hard to gain the decent benefits we finally have. There would be no end until you took it all…..no thanks. It’s not that easy.

    When I see the Governor on TV standing next to the president of CalPERS and the president of CSEA (California State Employees Association – Retiree) explaining things, get literature in the mail and when they come out with such a recommendation as you mention, I might listen at that point, but I haven’t heard anything like that yet from any source. CalPERS always says everythings “peachy”.

    PS: Aren’t you supposed to be working? Are you getting paid for conversing with a poor pensioner on-line?

  76. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Quote……..One teacher “ADL”, went so far as to write:

    “You conveniently don’t bother ever mentioning is that when you become enrolled in either CalPERS or CalSTRS (most teachers are STRS) you no longer pay into social security so that does not accrue for you any longer. So, it is good that teachers have some kind of retirement to look forward to”.
    ____________________________________________________
    I don’t know what this person is talking about, but they’re dead wrong. I not only paid for half of my own pension throughout my 36 career, I also paid into Social Security for 36 years. So guess what happens at age 62, TL ?

  77. Touch Love Says:

    If you paid into SS for the full 36 years, you are entitles to the formula benefits.

    Now before you say ..”they why the heck don’t you feel that way for my puiblic service pension” ….

    You see, your SS pension is a fair deal … everyone is getting the same deal (although for technical reasons the lower paid actually get a better return on their SS contributions).

    But, you Public service pension is a whole nother matter …. HUGELY expensive, with the taxpyers (little of which actually come from you as I explained in an earlier comment) as the balancing item for 80+% of the costs.

    And no, you haven’t paid ANYWHERE NEAR half the costs of your pension (10-20% is more on the mark). Ask your own Plan’s Actuary (Ron Seeling). He’ll set you straight as to the incredible deal you get.

  78. Poor Joe Says:

    Pensions are an individual fair deal too. Your formula percentage x your years of service at your formula age.

    Hummmmm, a pension AND Social Security ? Plus I have a part-time job too. WOW !!!…….it pays to work hard for a living.

  79. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    I couldn’t stand being trapped behind a desk my entire career. I had 145 people under my command and had both office and field responsibilities. I would feel like I wasn’t contributing to society if I had to type on a computer all day. No offense. If the State took out several hundred dollars from each pay check and the State contributed matching funds, that’s sounds like half to me. It’s when you out live what you paid in, that makes the difference.

  80. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    Stick with me TL, I’ll educate you on what it’s like to have a real dangerous job and to be a true dedicated public servant to the taxpayers of California. I could tell you some stories that would raise the hair on the back of your neck. Unless your too one-sided and don’t care to listen.

  81. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    I suppose your pretty tough though, sitting behind that desk typing on your computer.

  82. Touch Love Says:

    Its an ugly desk … and way too cluttered.

    By the way, way back you said your son is a public servant. It’s an honorable career path, but unlike you (already retire) who has a good chance of escaping significant reductions in your pension, your son has a snowball’s chance in hell of getting what he was “promised” on day one.

    Tell him to save bigtime, outside of the pension . He’s gonna need it when the SH** hits the fan.

  83. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    Nothing will happen. It’s like the Federal deficit. It’s been getting higher and higher for as long as I can remember and nobody does anything about it. The Federal Reserve, which is a non-government agency, keeps giving us more money year after year. And we also borrow money from China, As long as we pay the interest, they don’t care.

    PS: This may surprise you, but the Legislature sets a high priority on making sure the State’s contribution towards pensions is funded. Why do think that is?………….think about it for awhile and I’ll tell you later.

  84. Touch Love Says:

    Quoting …”Nothing will happen. It’s like the Federal deficit. It’s been getting higher and higher for as long as I can remember and nobody does anything about it. The Federal Reserve, which is a non-government agency, keeps giving us more money year after year. And we also borrow money from China, As long as we pay the interest, they don’t care.

    PS: This may surprise you, but the Legislature sets a high priority on making sure the State’s contribution towards pensions is funded. Why do think that is?………….think about it for awhile and I’ll tell you later.”

    WOW …..DO you EVER read the news ?

  85. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    Relax TL, every things cool……….. try and get some sleep tonight. I sleep like a baby knowing CalPERS is there for me.

    Yes I read the news AND CalPERS On-Line

  86. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    TL, I know your worried to death about our pensions, and that’s very sweet of you, but everything will be fine, don’t worry, get some sleep. CalPERS has been around for 75 years. They have already said that if investment returns fall short they will have to raise rates a little, the State will have to contribute more into the fund and the problem is solved. Hopefully investment returns will increase and they won’t have to do that. CalPERS said that, not me. Unless your uninformed again, they do have the authority to raise rates you know.

  87. Touch Love Says:

    Yup, they do, just like the UAW thought GM could raise car prices (to generate enough profits to pay for THEIR excessive pensions & Benefits) and still sell cars.

    Well, we know how THAT turned out.

  88. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    Yeah, they bounced right back and they’re still selling cars for nearly the same price, but much more fuel efficient.

  89. Touch Love Says:

    Yup, they bounced back ….but ONLY because of a HUGE gov’t bailout.

    THAT will NEVER happen in California, because the conservative states (like Texas) will NEVER allow the Feds to use their tax money to bail out states with these extreme entitlements.

  90. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    California is not asking for a bail out, although Arnold HAS talked about it. The Fed’s were not going to start bailing out States, because if they bailed out one, there would be 49 more in line. That’s why him and Bush #2 have clashed because Arnold didn’t have as much pull or clout in DC as he thought he did. He thought his “Terminator” big movie star reputation would impress Bush and put him first in line. He also had the mentality that California was the third largest State in the union and he should get special treatment. You should read the book “The Insider”. You’ll see how DC works.

    CalPERS is different. They will just raise rates on the 2500 agencies and current employees and they have the power to do so and to make the State do it too. They have no other choice or means of raising revenues other then the 11.5% rate of return their now getting. Let’s hope the rate of return goes higher, because they haven’t asked for higher rates yet.

  91. Poor Joe Pensioner Says:

    If the rate of return for CalPERS drops below 7.5%, you’ll have my attention.

  92. Touch Love Says:

    Quoting …”:They will just raise rates on the 2500 agencies and current employees and they have the power to do so and to make the State do it too.”

    And you think the resultant tax increase pased along to residents will be fothcoming without a huge fight ? Why should taxpayers suffer and pay more, so Civil Servants can retire very comfortably 10-20 years earlier than everyone else ?

    Keep dreaming …. it ain’t gonna happen.

    Shortfalls gong forward will either not be paid at all, or mostly be paid for via higher employEE contributions (more selling of your “young”).

  93. Touch Love Says:

    Joe, Check this out …

    http://legalnewsline.com/news/225451-calif.-ag-candidate-takes-aim-at-public-employee-pensions

    This guy is running for Calif. AG, and his platform is to reverse the 2001 pension formula increases to 3%@50 as being illegal from the get-go.

    WOW !

  94. Joe Pensioner Says:

    I think your the people that are experienceing “wishful dreaming”. Thanks to the enactment of SB400 by the Legislature and signed by the Governor in 1999, Public Servants that protect “you” are taken care of and properly treated in return for doing the dangeous jobs, we the taxpayers, hope they will do. Dream on TL….your right, it ain’t going to happen.

    Thank you to all the Police, Fire & Caltrans workers out there who keep our roads open, and keep us safe. Too bad these nitwit proponents don’t appreciate you. Don’t worry, most Californians do though, that’s why their initiatives fail over and over.

    PS: This Touch Love doesn’t even live in California

  95. Joe Pensioner Says:

    In many ways, the guy reminds me of you….totally misinformed. I’ll be nice and just tell you to read the McCauley-Burton vs State of California -1999 ruling. The courts already ruled on that one. Although they were talking about kicking it up to the US Supreme Court, but no hearing request has been submitted as of yet. Public Employee Benefits established within ones own State Legislature was ruled constitutional. You guys do not do your homework and are so far behind.

  96. Touch Love Says:

    I have know idea if this AG candidate is chasing a pipe dream, but his credentials look REAL solid … certainly looks like he should know what he is doing …

    Below are his credentials (from the article):

    Eastman, former dean of the Chapman University College of Law, joins Republican state Sen. Tom Harman of Huntington Beach and a crowded field of Democrats in vying to succeed Democrat Jerry Brown as attorney general.

    Before being appointed dean of Chapman’s law school in 2007, Eastman was director of the Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence, a public interest law firm affiliated with the Claremont Institute, a conservative Southern California think tank.

    Eastman earned his law degree from the University of Chicago Law School in 1995. He has a Ph.D. in government from the Claremont Graduate School, and was the 1990 Republican nominee for Congress in California’s 34th District.

  97. Joe Pensioner Says:

    SB (Senate Bill) 400 was constitutional. The honorable Judge Perry B. White basically ruled that the State has the authority to pay it’s employees what they want and it’s usually based on the Collective Bargaining process, which is also constitutional, but subject to the Legislature’s approval. The Governor can also veto it. But guess what TL, the Legislature approved the benefit changes in SB 400 and the Governor signed the bill. So, I don’t know what he thinks he’s going to do. He can challenge what he wants, I guess.

  98. Joe Pensioner Says:

    BULLSHIT !!! we don’t give anything back. It took us too long to get the benefits we have now. Find the money somewhere. You fuckin crybabies are just jealous.

  99. Tough Love Says:

    I admit it, I got beat up in prison. My real name is Chester……..

  100. Joe Pensioner Says:

    It’s about time you told the truth tough shit….er i mean tough love

  101. Joe Pensioner Says:

    It’s always the jealous ones that cry the loudest because they have nothing to show for their miserable income status.

  102. Joe Pensioner Says:

    This CHP pussy needs to go……………

  103. Tough Love Says:

    Who is CHP….?

  104. Joe Pensioner Says:

    California Highway Patrol – CHP. Oh, that’s right…..you don’t even live in California but stick your nose into our business anyway. This CHP guy needs to go. We need fighters who will fight the assholes who try to take things away from us that we’ve earned. If the economy wasn’t slow right now, pensions wouldn’t even be on the radar screen. They were never an issue.

  105. Santiago Sirnio Says:

    Hi, How do I subscribe to your blog via email? I’m not very good with RSS and would love to get your feed delivered to my email.

  106. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Hey Santiago, just right a comment and click at the bottom here to notify you of any follow-up comments via email

  107. Joe Pensioner Says:

    Thank God we have a candidate for Governor that isn’t an asshole corporate idiot and understands & appreciates State employees and all the things we’ve fought for. Yes I’m talking about Jerry Brown. The only thing that needs to go, (and I’ll admit) is the pension spiking and the ripoff of public monies. The recent incident in the City Of Bell is a good example of the assholes we want to kick out. The rest of us are hard working honest State employees who do not want to give up our pension formulas just because people are pressing the panic button over this economy and trying to blame all the State’s budget problems on the poor backs of State workers. Jerry Brown is one of the only few politicians that realize this and is the best candidate. Whitman is a clueless corporate idiot that doesn’t even belong in Sacramento, sticking her fat nose into something she knows nothing about. She’s an idiot just like “Tough Love”. Tough Love doesn’t even live in this great State of ours.

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