Can CalPERS investments do well by doing good?

Responding to legislation, the CalPERS board last week approved a five-year plan for a program that has given $10 billion to 300 new “emerging” investment managers with limited experience, yielding mixed results during the last two decades.

The nation’s largest public pension fund, valued at $239 billion last week, makes some investments with the twin goals of social-economic benefit and hitting an earnings target, 7.5 percent, that critics say is overly optimistic and conceals massive debt.

CalPERS has another $3 billion managed by 80 firms owned by women and minorities. A staff report noted that state agencies are prohibited (Proposition 209 in 1996) from considering race, gender and ethnicity in employment and contracts.

“Women and minority managers are more likely to be emerging managers,” said the report. “As a result, an ancillary benefit of our EM (emerging manager) strategies may be the increased diversification of CalPERS external fund managers.”

The renewed commitment to emerging managers comes as CalPERS, with investment earnings trailing nearly all large pension funds, is restructuring investment programs and showing progress in some areas, notably real estate.

The CalPERS investment fund remains well below its pre-crash peak, $260 billion in the fall of 2007, despite the recovery since the market bottom in March 2009 and annual employer-employee contributions that totaled $11 billion in fiscal 2010-11.

CalPERS expects to get two-thirds of its revenue from investment earnings. When earnings fall short, actuarial methods can ease rate increases. But if earning shortfalls continue, employer rates could soar, eating up funds needed for other programs.

A CalPERS consultant, Wilshire, compares earnings (page 20) among public pension funds with more than $10 billion in investments. As of last Dec. 31, CalPERS earnings ranked dead last during the previous five years, 0.57 percent, the 99th percentile.

The top-ranked funds in the fifth percentile earned 6.12 percent. The good news for CalPERS, if only in terms of peer performance, was that its one-year earnings were in the 44th percentile, 1.27 percent.

Over the last two decades, the CalPERS earnings average hit the 7.50 percent target. But critics say that period includes a record two-decade bull market ending in 2000 that is unlikely to be repeated.

A man known as the “bond king,” Bill Gross of Pacific Investment Management Co. in Newport Beach, the world’s largest bond investor, joined the critics last month with a well-publicized prediction that “the cult of equity is dying.”

Gross said stocks historically have returned 6.6 percent after inflation, but are unlikely to do as well in the future, said the Wall Street Journal, which noted some past Gross predictions have missed the mark.

Now Gross thinks policymakers may use inflation to “worm out of fiscal holes,” said the Journal, and he thinks “inflation kills long-term bonds and stocks also fare poorly.”

A Wilshire consultant told the CalPERS board last week that the Santa Monica- based firm thinks CalPERS can hit its 7.5 percent earnings target, with an expected 7.25 percent from market investments and higher yields from private equity and real estate.

“I don’t think that is an unrealistic amount of value to be added,” said Michael Schlachter of Wilshire.

In a major turnaround, CalPERS reported a big gain in real estate, which was hit by a string of well-publicized losses when the housing bubble burst, led by a $1 billion write off for a failed development north of Los Angeles.

A shift from speculative investments to income-producing property helped produce a 15.9 percent gain in real estate last fiscal year. The real estate staff leader, Ted Eliopoulos, said it was the “first signs or seeds” of a painful five-year restructuring.

Private equity gained 5.5 percent last fiscal year, down from its 10-year average of 9.9 percent. The private equity holdings, nearly 60 percent in leveraged buyouts, are valued at $34 billion, about 14 percent of the total fund.

A CalPERS investment strategy to avoid “home-country bias” and tilt toward “global equity” has been a drag on earnings as U.S. stocks lead. Wilshire continues to think the global equity strategy will pay off in the long run.

CalPERS has had other problems with the ill-timed removal of a market “overlay” hedge against losses and forestland investments centered in the south rather than the northwest, where the timber industry currently is aided by Asian demand.

In the mixed results from the $10 billion invested with emerging managers, there has been “added value” in global equity, but not in private equity, real estate and hedge funds, Joe Dear, the CalPERS chief investment officer, told the board.

The new chairman of the investment committee, Henry Jones, said CalPERS is proud of its long commitment to emerging managers and a record of accomplishment and leadership.

“However, as we all are aware CalPERS performance is below benchmark and performance against peers has not met expectations,” he said.

Jones said restructuring to improve performance, which reduced the number of managers and established controls, caused concern among some managers and stakeholders, which should be eased by the five-year plan.

The original version of the bill calling for a five-year plan, SB 294 by Sen. Curren Price, D-Culver City, set a goal of giving emerging managers 15 percent of CalPERS investments handled by outside contractors, not by CalPERS staff.

A specific goal was removed from the bill. The $10 billion CalPERS has invested with 300 emerging managers, nearly $1 billion during the last three years, is about 12 percent of the funds handled by external managers.

The restructuring of private equity led by new manager Real Desrochers resulted in a staff proposal last week to phase out a decade-old program that has put more than $1 billion into California firms, mainly to create jobs and development in underserved areas.

The first phase of the “California Initiative” hit its earnings target only because one $40 million investment in Leslie’s Pool Supply yielded a return of 12 times that amount. The yield from the second phase was below the benchmark.

Board member Steve Coony, representing state Treasurer Bill Lockyer, and Greg Beatty, representing the Brown administration, urged Desrochers to reconsider and come back to the board with a plan to improve the program.

“It’s important to let the public in California know that we are not going to disinvest that way,” said Coony, who said he discussed the California Initiative program with Lockyer.

“This is one where we would like to see a bigger commitment than a 10-year $1 billion commitment,” Coony said, “something at least equivalent to the infrastructure proposal for starters.”

CalPERS announced a goal last September of putting up to $800 million into California infrastructure over three years, then held a series of closed-door meetings last spring with local officials to discuss investment needs and possibilities.

“We will do that,” Dear said in response to Coony‘s request for a plan to improve the program. “It’s a good idea to maybe apply lessons from the infrastructure outreach that would create more visibility.”

Reporter Ed Mendel covered the Capitol in Sacramento for nearly three decades, most recently for the San Diego Union-Tribune. More stories are at http://calpensions.com/ Posted 20 Aug 12

362 Responses to “Can CalPERS investments do well by doing good?”

  1. spension Says:

    Perhaps we can all agree: turn these funds over to Vanguard. Index funds are most efficient. Bill Gross is self serving, BTW. Private Equity mainly benefits the folks who invest the money.

  2. Kidding Me Says:

    Gross is indeed self serving but Gross is certanly not the only one with the theory that go fwd assuming 7.5% avg annual returns from a heavily equity titled portfolio is foolish. Calpers assumed rate of return is foolish but we all know why they will not lower it. Also ALL investments start suffering at some point from a scale perspective. Gets very hard to turn the needle when you are 240B vs. 24B. Buffett has said the same thing several times and Berkshire’s investment portfolio is far more concentrated and smaller than Calpers.

  3. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    kidding me– they have lowered it– at least twice– and…………the 20 year avg is 7.75 and the 30 is ovber 8— Do you want them to ignore that?

  4. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted, there is no possibility of Calpers getting anywhere near a 7.5% return over the next 20 years. Buffett has stated publicly several times that with a 80B portfolio(and a far more concentrated one at that) he would consider anything over 7% as good. Calpers with all the fees that it shells out and all the multiple hands handling the mine has close to zero probability of besting 7.5% over a 20 year avg. The past is irrelevant to projecting future returns.

  5. Kidding Me Says:

    This article should be a wake up call to both pensioners and taxpayers. Sacramento is incapable of doing anything, steering the investments of Calpers is the start of a horror movie that is not going to end well. Good luck CA in protecting your wallets and your sanity.

  6. Captain Says:

    “A CalPERS consultant, Wilshire, compares earnings (page 20) among public pension funds with more than $10 billion in investments. As of last Dec. 31, CalPERS earnings ranked dead last during the previous five years, 0.57 percent, the 99th percentile.”

    “Dead Last”

  7. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Gross is 100% correct.

  8. Beelzebub Says:

    CalTURDS = 0.57% ROI for the last 5 years. The absolute WORST of all pension funds valued at over $10B. heh. 99th percentile. heh.

    Over 300 “Emerging” investment managers. HAH! What a standup job they’ve done!!!

    Over 300 “Emerging” investment managers = 0.57%!!! HAH!

    BRING ON THE DC’s AND DO IT NOW!!!!

  9. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Why are my comments “…comment is awaiting moderation.”
    “????

  10. Beelzebub Says:

    “CalPERS expects to get two-thirds of its revenue from investment earnings”

    Yeah sure ‘nuf. And I expect to grow a set of wings and be the first human to attempt and complete a trans-Pacific flight to Tokyo International Airport!!! :D

  11. Beelzebub Says:

    “Why are my comments “…comment is awaiting moderation.”
    “????

    Probably because Teddy snitched you off. He’s known for that, you know. ;)

  12. SeeSaw Says:

    Critics: I don’t understand the 300 emerging investment managers. I have sent a message to CalPERS, through my account, and in a few days, I might be able to discuss the issue. In the meantime, I suggest that you read the “CalPERS Responds” section and get a little information from all sides of the respective CalPERS issues.

  13. Beelzebub Says:

    “I have sent a message to CalPERS, through my account, and in a few days, I might be able to discuss the issue”

    I have sent a message to CalPERS, through my account, and is A FEW DECADES, I might be able to discuss the issue,

    Fixed.

    As if CalTurds cares what you think or want, seesaw! HAH! :D

  14. SeeSaw Says:

    I’m not asking CalPERS for anything. I want to know about the 300 emerging investment managers. Are they on the CalPERS payroll, or do they work for the companies in which the funds are invested?. Don’t answer. I will wait for CalPERS to explain it to me.

  15. Beelzebub Says:

    Most importantly, do the “Emerging” investment managers know a damn thing about how to invest money? That should have been your first question. It sounds to me like an investment affirmative action program using your money as their guinea pig!!! HAH!

    You should send the group a thank-you note and show your appreaciation for that 0.57% ROI, seesaw!!! HAH!

    Good luck, my dear. :)

  16. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    In the meantime, I suggest that you read the “CalPERS Responds” section and get a little information from all sides of the respective CalPERS issues.

    Sorry, I don’t read fiction unless it is from the local library :)

  17. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I’m not asking CalPERS for anything. I want to know about the 300 emerging investment managers. Are they on the CalPERS payroll, or do they work for the companies in which the funds are invested?.

    Jeez seesaw, can’t you figure it out??

    These are NEW/UNTRAINED/UNTESTED money managers, they have NO experience. They are CONNECTED IN b/c they are related to someone or know someone. Did you see them doing any RFP for these openings?? NO, of couse not.

    I guarantee you they fall into three categories- in this order;

    1) Family;
    2) Friends;
    3) Minorities.

    They do this to connect in their family and friends. Just like all gov employees. They are paid a FEE for their managing a set amount of funds. How much will vary.

    Just another cronyism for gov employees and their conecte din family and friends, like the local PD and FDs.

  18. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    lol– the clowns out here !!

    kidding me— do you understand an average over time?

    7.75 over 20 8 plus over 30—– 7 IS good and averages up nicely…..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    post now!!!

  19. SeeSaw Says:

    Rex, you didn’t even know that all CalPERS members may retire at age 50, with a minimum of five years’ service credit–yet you refuse to read anything by PERS. Are you being paid anywhere near what you are worth for all the disinformation you spout?

  20. spension Says:

    Unlike in previous examples of inflation being used by the government to solve financial problems, today we can (and I do) purchase inflation-indexed bonds. They are not perfect, but I think they will be effective if 1970’s style inflation starts again. Gross failed to mention these, at least in the quote above.

    However, anyone who claims they can accurately predict the next 30 years of stock market returns is deluded. No-one can. One year of poor returns is meaningless… it is the long term average that matters.

    I’d just go to Vanguard myself, for all the Cal pension funds. They’ll do better after subtracting the absurd expenses of the fund managers.

  21. Beelzebub Says:

    “Responding to legislation, the CalPERS board last week approved a five-year plan for a program that has given $10 billion to 300 new “emerging” investment managers with limited experience, yielding mixed results during the last two decades. “Women and minority managers are more likely to be emerging managers,” said the report. “As a result, an ancillary benefit of our EM (emerging manager) strategies may be the increased diversification of CalPERS external fund managers.” A CalPERS consultant, Wilshire, compares earnings (page 20) among public pension funds with more than $10 billion in investments. As of last Dec. 31, CalPERS earnings ranked dead last during the previous five years, 0.57 percent, the 99th percentile”

    My eyes don’t lie, seesaw.

    They are turning your retirement money over to an affirmative action program so the hirees can learn how to invest. It is a job training program for, like Rex said, those who are connected into the system and minorities. My guess is that each is making $60,000 – $100,000 in salary with all the benefits. No doubt they are making more than you made in your old government job. And look at the fantastic results, seesaw!!! A whopping 0.57% return for the last 5 years!!! HAH!

    This is what the California democratic majority are doing with you money. In the past you haven’t given a damn of what they did with OUR money – now that the shoe is on the other foot – how does it feel??? A little tight??? HAH!

    What goes around comes around dear!!!

    What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!!!

    HAH! :D

  22. Beelzebub Says:

    “One year of poor returns is meaningless… it is the long term average that matters”

    You’ve missed the entire point, spension.

    It’s not just ONE year!!! It’s TWELVE years. The average CalPERS ROI for the last TWELVE years has been about 3%.

    This is the NEW trend. You can’t look back at CalPERS history when they’ve averaged a 3% return for TWELVE consecutive years.

    If you look back at all the stock market booms all of them were generated by INTENTIONAL ECONOMIC BUBBLES – dotcom and real estate. The only reason the stock market has come back since 2008 is due to the BAILOUTS, QUANITATIVE EASING (MONEY PRINTING), ZERO INTEREST RATE POLICY (ZIRP) AND DEFICIT SPENIND WHICH CONTINUES AT A RATE OF OVER $1T ANNUALLY!!!

    None of it is sustainable, spension. None of it. The economy is not being sustained by productivity. It is being GAMED through the use of GIMMICKS to keep it afloat. The ONLY way they will be able to sustain it going forward is by starting another WORLD WAR which is not very smart in a nuclear age.

    My prediction is that Isreal will attack Iran prior to the 2012 Nov elections. I said that long ago and still believe it to be true. I guess we will find out soon, won’t we??? Americans love war and it will guarantee Obama’s reelection. He will become a lame duck and destroy what is left of this once great nation.

  23. SeeSaw Says:

    I read articles on this site and others, because I want to see lots of opinions and all sides to each issue. How many, “CalPERS Responds”, articles have you read, Beeze?

  24. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted do you seriously read anything at all on this site and the links you post? Perhaps you need a refresher course in reading comprehension. Read my post again SLOWLY, pause a few minutes, let the neurons fire up and then comprehend the meaning. On a related topic, either on this thread or the prior article you posted an article that made some rather questionable non quantitative and non dated assumptions about db being better than dc. But the real kicker was that the article was about NY and not CA. Do you need a refresher in Geography 101? Or are you trying to make the rather ludicrous claim that the “facts” in that article for NY apply equally to CA. Get off your fing high horse, put down the pipe and think clearly if you are able to. And then engage in sensible debate if you are able to.

  25. Kidding Me Says:

    Affirmative action on the taxpayer and pensioner’s dime as stated here is a good way of framing the nonsense as described in this article.

  26. Kidding Me Says:

    If the gasbag counsel that Calpers has – Mixon I think – is a standard to measure Calpers responses, then yes the responses are worth less than toilet paper.

  27. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Kidding me– you couldn’t understand the NY article could oyu?

    OH MY !

  28. SeeSaw Says:

    Sensible debate, KM–what is that? Sure doesn’t come from you.

  29. Beelzebub Says:

    “I read articles on this site and others, because I want to see lots of opinions and all sides to each issue. How many, “CalPERS Responds”, articles have you read, Beeze?”

    Are you asserting that the Calpensions website is misquoting or misrepresenting the CalPERS report referenced under this blog article? It is what it is, seesaw. My eyes don’t lie, dear. Words mean things. Any attempt to spin the words is unacceptable. Does that clarify my position?

  30. SeeSaw Says:

    Words mean things–“Beeze is a collossal jerk!” Read it and believe it, everyone.

  31. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    kidding me— do you understand an average over time?
    7.75 over 20 8 plus over 30—– 7 IS good and averages up nicely…..zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Teddy, now take OUT the internet and housing BUBBLES and you get the real ROI of CalTURDS= about 0.57%.

    You like to use the last 20 years Teddy so you can get those two BUBBLES in there. There is not going to be another tech or housing buble in the next century.

  32. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    SeeSaw— I guess he’s a jerk, or at least acts like one out here— he loves the attention. He probably gets little in his sad small life. What I do know about beezyboob/ocODDball is that he is very limited emotionally and intellect-wise. Kind of childlike.

  33. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Words mean things–”Beeze is a collossal jerk!” Read it and believe it, everyone.
    ===

    LOL…Beelz, did seesaw make you cry with her daily insult :)

  34. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Ted do you seriously read anything at all on this site and the links you post? Perhaps you need a refresher course in reading comprehension. Read my post again SLOWLY, pause a few minutes, let the neurons fire up and then comprehend the meaning.
    BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Watch out, Teddy is now going to start a new website titled “www.TeddyResponds.com”

  35. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Rex, you didn’t even know that all CalPERS members may retire at age 50, with a minimum of five years’ service credit–yet you refuse to read anything by PERS. Are you being paid anywhere near what you are worth for all the disinformation you spout?

    seesaw, you get mad at people b/c they have different views and opinions than you. You are biased, biased for these public pension scams b/c you are getting one. I on the other hand have no bias, I am a disinterested party looking at the situation without the rose colored glasses you wear 24/7/365. I see the scam. I point the scam out. You don’t like me or others pointing out the scam so you make personal attacks against me, Beelz, whomever you feel like calling a “jerk” on that particular day.

    Hey, it is OK, it doesn’t bother me, but take a look in the mirror, you may not like what you see. If you look like Teddy you may even have to break said mirron into a million pieces ;)

  36. Beelzebub Says:

    “There is not going to be another tech or housing buble in the next century”

    That would be correct, rex.

    THEY HAVE NO MORE ECONOMIC BUBBLES UP THEIR SLEEVES. THEY’VE RUN OUT OF BUBBLES!!! THEY’VE KICKED THOSE CANS DOWN THE ROAD AS FAR AS THEY CAN!!!

    All they can do now is PRINT MONEY or give BAILOUTS until they can’t anymore.

    We have run larger than a $1T deficit for over the last 5 consecutive years now!!! HAH!

    Rex, if not for all these economic bubbles, deficit spending, bailouts, ZIRP, money printing, zero interest loans to corps, etc… our GDP would have been in the DEEP NEGATIVE NUMBERS for the last 5 years and the DOW would be at 6,000.

    IT IS CALLED GIMMICK ECONOMICS!!!

    And it is VERY SHORT LIVED!

    You cannot operate a nation with consistent deficits of $1 TRILLION or more. Something has to blow!!!

  37. Beelzebub Says:

    “LOL…Beelz, did seesaw make you cry with her daily insult”

    Seesaw reminds me of the famous female clown Goosey Lucy. She provides entertainment value to the boards. She’s short on facts, long on gas. I would no more take her comments on new items seriously than I would a conversation with a 2nd grader about the theory of relativity.

  38. Kidding Me Says:

    Rex well put. Seesaw and Ted both claim to want to engage in debate and hear alternate viewpoints but their words and statements here prove otherwise. And as you said, objectivity is rather questionable when you are the beneficiary of only side of the debate. Certainly not impossible by any means but well above and beyond seesaw and Ted’s emotional capabilities and so when faced with a reality or viewpoint that is disturbing to them, they cling even tighter to their security blankets and resort to many silly things as evidenced here — all the rest of you are stupid/evil/you don’t get that we “deserve” this/we do “deserve” better protections of our pensions than similarly situated private sector workers because we’re “special”/contracts are unbreakable/CA constitution sez so/math and history be damned, DB is better than DC because we say it is/blah blah…

  39. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted I’ll help you out by restating my words in language that hopefully even an intelligent middle schooler can comprehend. Join the local middle school if you still have issues understanding below

    (1)Warren Buffet has a portfolio under 80 Billion all of it managed by basically 3 folks(Munger has pretty much stepped away from active investment decisions). The bulk of that 80B(B=Billion as a reminder) is held in less than 15 stocks. Berkshire is amongst the greatest(if not the greatest) compounding machine that USA has ever seen. More than 20% over a 40 year period. Buffett has stated that given Berkshire’s size, touching 7% go fwd is a feat
    (2)Calpers portfolio is more than 3 times the size of Berkshire and is handled by more than 200 “managers”. And this does not even begin to account the administrative empire that Calpers has to support, the conflicts of interest, the inherent sub-par performance you are guaranteed when you start mixing in affirmative action with retirement security, etc.
    (3)So add it all up here — [Calpers 200+ managers and their fees,performance bonuses,etc + Calpers administrative overhead + a near 100% certainty that Calpers does not have the investment acumen of Berkshire] virtually guarantees you that Calpers will not be anywhere near 7% the hurdle rate that Buffett mentions. Nobody can project what Calpers will return in the future but you are seriously over optimistic if you believe that Calpers can cross a hurdle that Berkshire is setting up for itself.

    Assuming that Calpers will trail Berkshire by at least 10%(and even that might be too optimistic) gets you a go fwd return of 6.3%. Assuming a gap of 15% gets you a Calpers return of 5.95%. Even 5.95% is way way fing better than Calpers recent returns as mentioned in this thread. Do the math if you can and figure out what the next 20 years at say 6% means vs. Calpers current projections(I believe currently 7.5% but I could be wrong here). In case you did not know it, when you are dealing with a 240B portfolio, small misses in yearly returns start having a BIG impact, a 1.5% miss per year can be extremely costly both of the health of pensioners and taxpayers.

  40. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Kid me—– Why do you think I would engage a clown, well, ah…like yourself out here about anything?

    Seriously?

    My job is to make you spin your nonsense.

    What’s the 30 year ror for Berkshire overall?

    but, but, ah , well, gee, ah

    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

  41. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    I’ll help ya Kid me— They claim it’s 18.83 for 20——mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    poor Calpers

    Ap.=Oranges?

    lol

    Good luck on that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  42. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    …and a riddle——- does the ROR include the contributions? Hmmmmmmm.

    How much do they pay out per an? Hmmmmmmmm

    Are they 239 billion today?

    Is it out 11 b and in 10.5 b currently per year?

    Hmmmmm—- how long til delta?

    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

  43. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Perhaps it’s time to stop cherry-picking the data to fit a preconceived thesis. Especially silly when you start talking about investment returns.

    These bloggy screeds would have us believe that municipal bonds are the worst possible investment one could make – and yet the Barclays Capital Muni Bond Index outperformed equities over the last ten years.

    As long as we’re discussing short-term results, one could point out that munis were also the best-performing asset class in 2011, but one would never guess that from Mead’s Drudge-like breathless reports of impending calamities for anything related to big gum’mint.

    In truth, though, investment returns for any particular year are next to meaningless. No proper analysis of the efficacy of a fund manager or his/her investment prowess would go out less than 10 years.

    A nice perspective?

  44. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    all of the above in quotes—

  45. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    OMG, did Teddy have a MELTDOWN!!!! Teddy, breath deep, count from 10 backwards, think good thoughts :)

    Teddy, CalTURDS 2007= 260 BILLION,
    CalTURDS 2011= $239 Billion, still down $21 billion in principle and down $122 billion in ROI;

    Total loss since 2007= $142BILLION!!!!!!!!!!!! Or $28 Billion per year!.

    If CalTURDS were hitting their 7.5%-8.0% ROI the last 5 years it would be sittigt pretty at $382 Billion-only off by 60% from 2007.

  46. Beelzebub Says:

    “In truth, though, investment returns for any particular year are next to meaningless”

    Is the average CalTURDS ROI for the most recent 12 consecutive years meaningless too, you mental midget??? HAH!

    3% BABY!!!! :D

    Stick a little of that in your Calabash pipe and suck on it, professor!!! HAH! :D

  47. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    LOL—- 8% over 30 years little trolls!

    239 bil baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaby!

    How long will it take me to spend all that?

    LOL mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

  48. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted – seriously get to your local educational outlet and get a grounding in Finance 101 and perhaps even Logic 101. Your posts above are the equivalent of foaming at the mouth, looks like you really have had a meltdown. You are spouting even more garbage than customary. Return On Investments is a fairly standard formula and both Calpers and Berskhire have to deal with inflow and outflow so what is your point? Also we can always rely on the fact that Calpers is going to do whatever is legally/auditor permissible to define as ROI. So with all the juicing they can can muster, as pointed out above their returns in the last 10 years have still sucked. Sucked bigtime.

    Take a gander at this doc from Stanford http://siepr.stanford.edu/system/files/shared/Nation%20Statewide%20Report%20v081.pdf which again unlike the DB is better garbage about NY that you posted specifically talks about CA.

    Looking forward to your and seesaws next round of garbage posts trashing Stanford’s analysis. Be sure to slip in somewhere that Stanford is a front for Repubs/evil taxpayers/etc.

    Here’s a gem of a quote from Jerry Brown that despicable conservative tool — how dare he say the below
    “There is no doubt that we are going to have to adjust our pensions so that money coming in is going to be equal to what we can expect what the money going out will be. It’s not even a matter of higher math. It’s fifth-grade arithmetic.” 1
    — California Governor Jerry Brown, Oct. 13, 2011

  49. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted — so that your questionable abilities at arithmatic and logic are not further strained and cause further neurons in to give up — look at Page 22 of the Stanford report.

    Probability of Shortfall = 82%. I hope you can read and the number sinks and you don’t see this backwards — 82% and not 28% yes FING 82% probability of shortfall.

  50. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted — so that your questionable abilities at arithmetic and logic are not further strained and cause further neurons in your brain to give up their fight to survive — look at Page 22 of the Stanford report.

    Probability of Shortfall = 82%. I hope you can read and the number sinks and you don’t see this backwards — 82% and not 28% YES FING 82% probability of shortfall.

    Has Calpers ever declared this in any of their lala land material?

  51. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    LOL— As I said— no time to read all of your posts– they just contain the same old drivel…blah blah blah….Standford etc.

    The Standford college kids report has been debunked oh so many times….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Please type more posts and longer ones too….

    Thanks for playing!

    Oh wait——- there’s a phone call for you! — Your mortgage is due in full today!

    Please spin up now!

  52. Kidding Me Says:

    Well he’s a PhD (dunno what his age is) but even if it turned out that he has yet to grow hair on his chest I’ll take his report and analysis anytime over the sewage that pours out from your mouth.

    Trust you(hey seesaw, looks like you have mellowed down, why don’t you join Ted and give us all more pearls of your wisdom and give us a good Tuesday laugh) to downplay the analysis and Brown’s comment by spouting more sewage.

    Good luck living in lala land for as long as you can. Don’t wet yourself when the bubble you are living in pops or keep some paper towels handy for cleaning up.

  53. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    kidding me— I feel alot of anger and frustration in your post. It will all be ok. Everything changes and all of this will too. We’ll see. Try to relax. Ya know,. there is a ton of pension reform in the works and if I am correct much of it will come to pass– seriously…..things will get better for your position and one hopes, your frustration. God bless!

  54. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Looking forward to your and seesaws next round of garbage posts trashing Stanford’s analysis. Be sure to slip in somewhere that Stanford is a front for Repubs/evil taxpayers/etc.

    Hhahahah….Teddy is out for the 10 count, heck even Teddys gimmick accounts may have been knocked out from that haymaker!

    Oh Teddy-how I pity you fool!

  55. SeeSaw Says:

    I’m not living in any bubble KM. I never went into debt during the real bubble, and I am not in debt now, and I won’t be going into debt in the future. So there will be no need for getting wet, on my part. You just go on and enjoy trashing anyone else who has an opinion different than your’s. And keep on refusing to read what is written on that toilet paper.

  56. Beelzebub Says:

    Have you heard the latest scam being organized by the dems in the state legislature?

    They want to set up a pension plan for 7 million private sector workers in California that would be run by the government.

    Obviously, they are doing this because they feel the heat. and pressure on the public pensions. They feel that if they can add some private sector workers to pensions that the heat will subside.

    It is under SB 1234.

    All companies that don’t already have a pension plan would be REQUIRED to join this plan.

    It has already passed the senate.

    They can’t afford the pension plans they have – and now they want to add even a BIGGER burden on the taxpayers.

    Who in their right mind would stay in California to finance all this crap?

  57. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    I love the Dems!!!

  58. SeeSaw Says:

    Beeze, I have not given SB1234 much attention, but I don’t think it is going forward. It is the right idea at the wrong time–I think you are wrong on the funding sources, and I don’t think all companies would be required to join–I do remember seeing that participation on the part of the workers would be voluntary. DeLeon had been working on the plight of the domestic workers before the pension problems erupted–the public-pension crisis has nothing at all to do with his Bill. In fact, I don’t think he gave any thought to the fact that he is jumping the gun, when we already have plenty of other issues to solve. A worse Bill in the works is AB2451–1234 is nothing, in comparison.

  59. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    SeeSaw Says:
    I’m not living in any bubble KM. ……You just go on and enjoy trashing anyone else who has an opinion different than your’s.

    Oh the irony seesaw…………. :)

    Pot, meet kettle :)

  60. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, the latest scam is AB2431-It passed the Assembly on a 69-4 vote and the Senate Labor and Industrial Relations Committee sent it along on a unanimous vote. Such solid support from both Democrats and Republicans illustrates the broad-based political influence of police and firefighter unions. A legislative analysis identifies the California Association of Highway Patrolmen and the California Professional Firefighters as co-sources of the measure, Assembly Bill 2451.

    Republicans and democrats working behind the scenes with th epublic trough feeders to LINE THEIR OWN POCKETS while stealing ours ;)

    http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120817/OPINION/120819593

  61. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Who in their right mind would stay in California to finance all this crap?
    ==
    Only public employees and welfare queens, who are one and the same IMO ;)

  62. SeeSaw Says:

    I take it that you and Beeze will both be leaving CA soon?

  63. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted and seesaw – I don’t have a personal vendetta against public sector workers collecting a pension. Mathematically if it was possible for the pension payouts to continue in conjunction with no further picking of taxpayer pockets hey I am all for it. While I am disgusted at some of the excesses (Morris 204K, etc) I realize that what the unions and public sector workers did in regards to continually stretching the envelope was no different than what the rest of society was doing – its every man for himself for quite some time so why should we hold public sector workers to a standard higher than the rest of society. I have no desire to cut off pension paychecks to the extent avoidable. That said, the rubber unfortunately is meeting the road and conflict of interests and friction is now unavoidable. However before we can seek a solution, we must acknowledge a problem. There’s a good brief description about this in the Stanford paper about Rhode Island I think where they settled on a hybrid db/dc plan and other compromises. I did read through several of the Calpers responds articles today and I still stick to my view – the 4 recent articles I read are basically written by hacks – they are simply propaganda responses to newspaper articles and do not even pretend to have a measure of objectivity. Calpers misplaced bravado is an issue because Calpers is choosing to not acknowledge. Unless you start labeling the mayor of San Jose and the Governor of CA as repub tools, there is a problem that is bubbling when Dems are forced to go against their base. Others will be sure to follow the examples of SJ and SD and if in Stockton, pensions are indeed cut the floodgates will open. Better for all parties to agree there is a problem, come to the table and attempt to solve it than vilifying the other party. I seriously doubt that in SJ and SD courts will dare to overturn public opinion. There is also a bill in the works for IL where new lawmakers will not get the same pension benefits as existing lawmakers. Imagine that – IL is even more screwed up than CA.

  64. Kidding Me Says:

    ROFLMAO on the press democrat article. Really gotta give props to pols in CA for providing an unending source of amusement. Good link, good Tuesday laugh. Few weeks back, the high speed rail also provided a good laugh.

  65. Kidding Me Says:

    I looked at the summary of SB 1234, LOL on that one too. That said, hey gotta give credit where due to Dems in coming up with a rather creative solution to the pressure on pension reform.

    Sacramento pols never cease to amaze, golly what a fine source of entertainment their fertile minds provide.

  66. Kidding Me Says:

    69-4 vote on 2452. Wow, I mean really fing wow. And most of the repubs that voted for it will likely get re-elected. Hey if Dems can get away with this kind of majority on their bills then they truly deserve the honor of plundering the riches of the land. Well played Dems, game set and match. Sorry muppet citizens of CA, better luck next time round.

  67. SeeSaw Says:

    Any court decisions regarding SJ and SD will be on the basis of legality–the fact that the voters passed such mean-spirited measures, will have no bearing on whatever decisions are made.

  68. Kidding Me Says:

    They should probably erect a Madame Tussauds equivalent museum in Sac and place within in the new gods of CA – police, firefighters and prison guards. Should be easy to fund what with the several hundred million at stake for 2452. Give the public a chance to bow at the feet of their new gods.

  69. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Any court decisions regarding SJ and SD will be on the basis of legality–the fact that the voters passed such mean-spirited measures,

    Those mean nasty taxpayers, the gall of them to stop try to stop the trough feeders from repeatdly sticking their dirty little gubby greedy fingers into their pockets …..hahahhahahahaha….seesaw you missed your calling as a comedian :)

  70. Kidding Me Says:

    Regards the pension plan for private sector workers, I am aghast at the apparent inability of the writers in figuring out a way to stick the bill to future generations. How can this be when this model has been used so successfully in other areas of public policy. Failure of this sort is disappointing from the thought leaders in this area. Perhaps we should all write in to our friendly congressman and demand that this failure be remediated. Isn’t kicking then can down the road as American as apple pie?

  71. Kidding Me Says:

    A private sector pension bill that will have an assumed ROR of much less than 7.75% and will not be back stopped by taxpayers is so…. incredibly pedestrian! O Sacramento masters of the universe, what happened? Where is the flash of genius that we have to come to expect of you in the land of milk and honey? The win-win solutions that you are so renowned for. The magic wands a la Harry that you have been known to flash that dazzled the muppets. Should we rebuild and redevelop all the areas outside the Capitol and replace with fields of marijuana so that you may be inspired by the fragrance and step outside and build joints on demand when there is a need for inspiration. Confide in us masters so that we your servants can act on your every wish and make it come true.

  72. Kidding Me Says:

    You know it would be fun to guess the next set of sops err policies that the geniuses in Sacramento will come out with. Here’s a few from me
    (1)An anti anti-immigration bill. Do the opposite of AZ. Strict penalties for anybody who reports on or uncovers illegal immigrants
    (2)In response to losing to the Feds on the Supremacy Clause on restructuring pension obligations in a BK – a secession movement. Berkeley Gone Wild! HONOR OUR PUBLIC MASTERS bill. The secession part will be tucked in deep somewhere, pols are good at that sort of thing.
    (3)Grabbing the waters of the Colorado river by force if necessary. Plant mines, deploy armed forces, the whole nine yards
    (4)Anchor baby bill – guarantee of citizenship to parents. Hey you should be rewarded for this, not vilified.
    (5)Proposition 911 – A minimum of 10% of state revenues must be spent on public safety providers. This class also includes all Sac pols and aides current and retired and any extended family.

  73. Beelzebub Says:

    “(1)An anti anti-immigration bill. Do the opposite of AZ. Strict penalties for anybody who reports on or uncovers illegal immigrants”

    Kidding…you haven’t heard?

    SB 1081 (Trust Act) has already passed the Senate and is guaranteed to pass the Assembly with a 90% chance it will be signed by Gov Clown.

    It prohibits all state and local authorities from transferring illegals to the Federal authorities for deportation unless the illegal committed a VIOLENT felony. If they were just convicted of a non-violent felony or a misdeameanor they cannot be turned over. They get to remain in California.

    We are becoming a Banana Republic where selective anarchy rules. We already have only 12% of the nation’s population in Ca but 33% of the nations welfare population.

    This state is so screwed.

    All they will have living here are illegal migrants, newspaper reporters and government workers.

  74. Kidding Me Says:

    Nope I had not, today is indeed turning out to be a CA laugh-a-thon for me.

  75. Beelzebub Says:

    None of this is sustainable. It defies all the laws of mathematics. It can’t work.

    It is destined to blow up and eventually there will be a civil war and martial law. It’s really going to get fugly.

    To a routine spectator is appears as if our politicians are willfully attempting to destroy our society as we’ve known it.

    I really don’t know any other way to intrepret it.

  76. Kidding Me Says:

    Yep, everybody outside CA will be grabbing their popcorn and soda. The trailer has already begun, we’re just being teased now till the main event begins. Let it roll, let the show begin. We expect a great show from the land of Hollywood.

  77. Beelzebub Says:

    This is the way they destroyed the old Soviet Union. The 1% and the government elite over there stole it all then crashed the economy, leaving the peasants with nothing. Gerald Celente’s favorite line is “When people lose everything and have nothing left to lose – they lose it”. I really don’t want to witness what I think might happen in this country.

  78. Beelzebub Says:

    It would be a huge injustice if the next mother of all economic meltdowns did not occur while the baby boomers were still alive. The ones who cornered the market on the greed, selfishness and avarice should pay the heaviest price The younger generations should insist that the baby boomers share the pain. We were the most irresponsible and self-absorbed generation that has ever occupied these United States of America. It certainly was the “me generation”. What a despicable generation we were!

  79. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, when the republicans are joining democrats to give a $300K gift to every cop, ff, prison guard, lifeguard (man that is so funny!!..$200K LG has a public safety designation!!) and the other 19 public safety jobs, 40 years after they retire then there is no hope, we are going down.

    If that bill passes the senate and is signed by Clown I am moving out of state :) It is just one scam after another, even $20 BILLION in the red.

  80. spension Says:

    It’s always possible to cherry pick a certain period of time and extrapolate that everything has changed, that future returns will be low forever. Remember 1968-1982? I sure do. I’m way to young to remember 1929-1943, but that is another.

    If your pessimistic feel free to move to Idaho or Somalia and live in a bunker. BTW, I don’t think Warren Buffet ever felt that he should give up on future returns… he didn’t move to a bunker after 1968-1982.

    No-one knows what future returns, no-one. But from 1800-2012, the average return after inflation is about 6%, from the stock market. But there have been 30-year periods of negligible gain.

    Which is the whole point. Any pension plan should have planned for that. I think California pension plans forgot, and did count on the taxpayer to make up the difference. A terrible mistake.

    As for what is expensive: the DC industry takes fees at the 1-2% level, as proven by Rex and BZ in their link to the CalSTRS DC plans. The DB industry is much lower… 0.5% by CalPERS (which is too high), but 0.15% by CalSTRS and UCRP. That DB is much cheaper in fees is a numerical fact, not my opinion.

    That BZ, Rex and others disagree with those published fees is true, but they have no numbers, no facts, just opinion. Maybe they are right, but they aren’t proving anything by kneejerk objection. They, after all, provided the links to the expensive DC fees (they were mistaken and thought the CalSTRS 403(b) and 457(b) were DB plans, and, inadvertantly shot themselves in the foot).

    Now if their religion is: hate DB, love DC, they should just say that. People have lots of religious believes: that the world began 4,000 years ago, that lack of prayer causes miscarriage (that got me out of the church, I’ll tell you), that the world is flat, that the sun orbits the earth, etc. Feel free to hold as many unempirical beliefs, eat fish on friday, avoid, pork, etc. as you please.

    But when it comes to wasting taxpayer money on high fees to Wall Street, we have to all agree on the facts: DC plans are why more costly than DB plans. Anyone who argues otherwise is likely getting kickbacks from Wall Street.

  81. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    Trolls— Your posta were too long and dull– PLEASE— something pithy and new? Remember what Lincoln said about brevity and written expression….

  82. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    …and of course spension is correct about costs—-facts are facts….

  83. Kidding Me Says:

    Spension with all due respect, you are fixated only on 1 angle of this tangled issue. It is not only about DC vs. DB fees. It is about fees, performance and taxpayer risk. In and of itself DB fees being lower than DC fees amounts to nothing. If the current DB system as structured were working and projected payouts were more than sufficient, nobody would care(or at least the level of disgust would be lower than the level of rebellion) BUT the system is not working when pension payouts are consuming larger and larger portions of state and muni budgets. Do you believe that Stockton and San Bernardino are filing for BK simply because they want to have fun in BK court? Do you also seriously believe that the private sector pension bill being considered is truly because Sac pols started caring about the private sector?

  84. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Kidding me— You forget the “holiday” years.

    DB’s are best viewed over time—- they are more efficient.

    Spension is correct.

    If you want to lower the payouts– you can—- this is a rep democracy—-

  85. Beelzebub Says:

    “But when it comes to wasting taxpayer money on high fees to Wall Street, we have to all agree on the facts: DC plans are why more costly than DB plans”

    I’m serious. I have never seen anyone stuck on stupid to this degree before. The house is burning down and she’s worried whether the drapes match the carpeting. The ignorance on this board is astounding.

  86. Beelzebub Says:

    “Do you believe that Stockton and San Bernardino are filing for BK simply because they want to have fun in BK court?”

    They’re imbeciles, Kidding. They ignore expenses completely and focus only on revenue. If the budget doesn’t balance it’s because taxes are not high enough.

    They are amongst the most selfish people I have ever communicated with. None of them give a damn about what happens to society and to future generations going forward. All they care about are their own puerile and selfish needs. They are like little babies reaching for the pacifer and if it’s not there they scream like stuck hogs. Classic baby boomers. All of them. Brought up on greed and avarice without considering the interests of the greater good.

    “Do you also seriously believe that the private sector pension bill being considered is truly because Sac pols started caring about the private sector?”

    Seesaw believes that DeLeon woke up one morning with an altrusitic drive to help the private sector! HAH! It’s obvious what the slimebucket is doing. He believes that by inviting the private sector into his den of sin and offering them a bite of the apple that he can dissaude more uprisings like we’ve seen in San Diego and San Jose. He doesn’t give a GD if the math doesn’t work. It’s all about keeping those public union bribes coming in.

    And these pigs call themselves ‘leaders’.

    F it. Let it all burn down.

  87. Kidding Me Says:

    spension I re-read your post and had a question for you. In your post and earlier posts you seem to be agreeing to the excessive greed in the past and the error in structuring a pension plan that leaves the taxpayer with an undefined open ended liability. In parallel you have stated that DC gives too much $$ to Wall St and DC is cheaper.

    So what is your go forward view? Continue with things as they are and essentially hope that Calpers will again start inching towards the [20 year/7.50%] average advertised rate OR make changes now OR??

    It seems your position is to continue with the known evils and risk but tell me if I have misunderstood your position.

  88. Kidding Me Says:

    In post above, I made a typo. Corrected statement is “In parallel you have stated that DC gives too much $$ to Wall St and DB is cheaper”

  89. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Beelzebub Says:

    The ignorance on this board is astounding.

    I think the old ocODDball aka Beezyboob is projecting a bit.

  90. SeeSaw Says:

    I didn’t just think it, Beeze. I vaguely recall that his Bill was put forth because he has an aunt that worked as a domestic for years, with no benefits. If he was just trying to take the heat off the public-pension issue, he would not have put forth his own measure at this time–a measure I do not support by the way. As I said before, it is the right idea at the wrong time.

    Because the people who perpetrated this financial debacle are probably the age range of baby boomers, is no reasons for you to target that whole demographic group with your ugly words. My children are baby boomers, and I would never wish ill on them or any other specific, demographic group. Nor would their own children, whom have been very well cared for by their baby boomer parents, wish ill on them.

  91. spension Says:

    Fees are a *big* deal. So is the longevity effect. Combined, they roughly double the cost of DC plans (for a given benefit) compared to DB plans. I don’t think worrying about doubling taxpayer costs, which DC plans do, compared to DB plans, is `stuck on stupid’.

    But if your real goal is to fatten Wall Street’s take, you might call me `stuck on stupid’.

    As for what I would do: lower the payout formulas and increase retirement ages, sorry, for existing employees and pensioners. Do it well so as *not* to screw the 85 year old lady who worked for 35 years as a kindergarten teacher while maintaining the high pension of a City of Bell administrator.

    But the law of that is really hard. Either a reduction of pensions is entered into voluntarily by the pensioners and existing employees, or, California should do it in a Sovereign Default.

  92. SeeSaw Says:

    No way, Jose!

  93. Kidding Me Says:

    spension, thanks for outlining your go fwd view. While I still respectfully disagree with your view on db vs. dc, I do agree with the rest of your view.

    FWIW, I see close to zero probability of public sector workers(whether working or retired) voluntarily agreeing to any kind of reduction in the highly poisoned and polarized environment that we currently are in. I think the nasty court fights that are brewing in big cities like SJ and SD should make that abundantly clear.

    And SJ at least did not even propose any cuts to accrued benefits, only to go forward benefits. Presumably when the topic of cuts to accrued benefits comes up(and I think that is unavoidable for at least some munis) things will go nuclear.

    Good times to be a lawyer currently in CA! The sun is shining, the fees are going to be pouring in for several years on this.

  94. Beelzebub Says:

    “I vaguely recall that his Bill was put forth because he has an aunt that worked as a domestic for years, with no benefits”

    I laugh at you for falling for such nonsense, seesaw. So if a lawmaker saw the neighbor’s dog crap on his lawn one morning it’s his duty to run to Sacramento and author a bill that would require all lawn crapping dogs be put to death??? HAH!!!

    You are one of the most bizarre posters I have ever witnessed on any board, seesaw!

    DeLeon saw the pushback on the public pensions and wanted to get out in front of it to protect his union owners. So in his devilish way – he offered the private sector a bite of his poisoned apple!!! HAH! Anybody with a brain can figure that out. Any other explanation is hyperbole and complete balderdash. But I would expect a poster like you to swallow his bait hook, line and sinker. You believe anything anyone tells you as long as they are part of your ideological clik, don’t you Seesaw??? Just curious. Are you of german anscestry?

  95. Beelzebub Says:

    “Combined, they roughly double the cost of DC plans (for a given benefit) compared to DB plans”

    Sure they do, genius.

    And the over 300 “Emerging” investment managers who helped deliver the 0.57% ROI in the last 5 years all work for CalPERS for free too, don’t they??? HAH!

    And the “Emerging” investment managers are only a HANDFUL of the total number of investment advisors on CalPERS payroll. In truth, there are probably 1000 or more investment advisors getting paid by CalPERS and it’s all done off the books through creative accounting gimmicks. ;)

    Those numbers you throw out are simply UNBELIEVABLE when a rationally thinking observer views all the facts.

    I believe nothing that comes from your propoganda sources.

  96. SeeSaw Says:

    I laugh at you Beeze, for letting your knickers get into such knots over something that is not going to happen anyway. My own ideology is moderate–basically mainstream. You are on the “cuckoo” right–really bizarre!

  97. Kidding Me Says:

    LOL on the dog crapping example, good one. I don’t advocate death for sure but I would certainly love to see that issue being solved legislatively or otherwise. Expecting all dog owners to pick up after their dogs seems to be an antiquated concept these days!

  98. spension Says:

    BZ, for you there are no facts, it is all propaganda. That’s why your credibility is negligible… you are the guy who confused DC expense ratios for CalSTRS with those for DB plans.

  99. Kidding Me Says:

    Nothing mainstream about your viewpoint in SJ or SD seesaw. Last I checked these 2 towns are not dots on the map on Hwy 5 or ghost towns.

  100. Kidding Me Says:

    Mainstream amongst folks collecting a pension check – YES, mainstream in the rest of the population – NO, HELL NO

  101. SeeSaw Says:

    I stated that the law will be followed in the forthcoming decisions regarding SJ and SD–pretty mainstream thinking.. KM’s thinking is pretty extreme–the “Misery loves company” and, “If I don’t have it, you must lose it,” extreme.

  102. Kidding Me Says:

    Seesaw anybody who advocates that future pension benefits and perhaps even existing ones need to be cut is extreme to you. No surprise there.

    BTW you previously expressed admiration for spension’s viewpoint and even posited that s/he may be a qualified financial analyst. Whither thou admiration now that spension’s view is that cuts are needed? Where art thy comments and wisdom?

  103. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Beezyboob said– You are one of the most bizarre posters I have ever witnessed on any board, seesaw!

    I guess he does not own a mirror?

  104. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Seesaw is spot on—the law will be followed— it has been in this area of law for 100 plus years.

    Lowering future payouts is of course what will and has happenned.

    Kind of funny to watch these board trolls who put energy into multiple posts a day and ZERO energy into using their democracy to lower future and current worker payouts.

    Current retirees are secure of course.

  105. SeeSaw Says:

    I asked the others if they had considered the possibility that Spension might be a professional financial analyst (I don’t think that “professional” and “qualified” are necessarily synonymous). If I express admiration for the intellect and experience of another, does not automatically make me in agreement with everything that person says.

  106. Kidding Me Says:

    SJ for the record has not proposed lowering of existing benefits only future ones. Seesaw is also on record for stating that this was a “mean spirited” move by voters. I will be shocked if after the courts rule that SJ’s vote is legit, seesaw starts calling the judges/jury/court system as extremists and “mean spirited” monsters.

  107. Beelzebub Says:

    “I asked the others if they had considered the possibility that Spension might be a professional financial analyst…”

    Oh, Seesaw….did I ever tell you that I am a Rhodes Scholar with a PhD in small particle molecular physics??? Did I ever tell you that, Seesaw??? If I told you that would you believe me??? If I changed my ideology to being socially and fiscally progressive liberal – and started promoting unaffordable pensions for government trough feeders – would you believe me then??? HAH! :D

  108. Kidding Me Says:

    seesaw I am really intrigued as to why your name in this thread points to pensiontsunami. Are you a double agent, do you have multiple personality disorder or are you engaging in some bizarro “devil’s advocate” debate practice :) What gives?

  109. Beelzebub Says:

    Seesaw’s opinions make it very clear to me that she doesn’t give a damn about the futures of upcoming generations that will be tasked with fianancing all the debt that has resulted from these egregious pensions which are non-existent in the private sector. She is undoubtedly one of those selfish baby boomers who I have been railing about. My parent’s generation cared more about the future of the young people than they did for themselves. That is how RESPONSIBLE adults think. And then came the baby boomer filth. Nothing was too good for them. And if someone else had to pay for their greed and selfishness – so much the better.

    That is why if the entire economy crashes I hope it crashes on the baby boomer’s watch so the ones responsible for it suffer the most.

  110. SeeSaw Says:

    Knock it off Beeze. I am able to make my own decisions and determine what I will and will not accept as fact. I had nothing to do with promoting pensions in the beginning, and I have nothing against sensible, pension reform. I live a very modest life, so you can’t point to me as any example of excess.

  111. Kidding Me Says:

    Enlighten us seesaw on what in your view constitutes sensible pension reform.

  112. SeeSaw Says:

    I read and listen to all viewpoints, KM. I get a little bit of Rush and Ken and Jon when I am driving in my car. There wouldn’t be anything to talk about if everybody had the same opinion about everything.

  113. Beelzebub Says:

    “Current retirees are secure of course”

    Yes. Until they aren’t anymore. :D

  114. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    What a load of complete childish gibberish conversation! Reminds me of a junior high schoolyard.

    zzzzzzzzzzzzz

  115. Beelzebub Says:

    “Knock it off Beeze. I am able to make my own decisions and determine what I will and will not accept as fact. I had nothing to do with promoting pensions in the beginning, and I have nothing against sensible, pension reform. I live a very modest life, so you can’t point to me as any example of excess”

    BS, seesaw.

    If it waddles, quacks and has feathers it’s a duck.

    I call them exactly as a I see them.

  116. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    240 billion baby! 8% over 30 years plus contributions!

    Oh my!

  117. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    OCobserver = LOL !

  118. SeeSaw Says:

    A couple: Put a reasonable cap on the amount of salary that is pensionable and forbid managers from negotiating pension amounts separate and beyond those provided by the respective plans–(something that happens now); Forbid egregious pension spiking that is the usual in the County 37 Act plans–CalPERS does not allow such now. I’m sure we will see a list coming from the Legislature before the end of next week. Some will be good and some will be bad.

  119. SeeSaw Says:

    Well, I hate to tell you Beeze–you are blind!

  120. Beelzebub Says:

    “Well, I hate to tell you Beeze–you are blind!”

    20/15 both eyes.

    And my sniffer can smell a pile of crap a mile away too! :D

  121. SeeSaw Says:

    That’s your own pile you are sitting on, Beeze.

  122. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    A couple: Put a reasonable cap on the amount of salary that is pensionable and forbid managers from negotiating pension amounts separate and beyond those provided by the respective plans–(something that happens now);
    Good start- I would cap it max of $50K. But you left out retirement ages-they need to go up, well past age 50, 62 for safety then the same as SS for everyone else, 67 currently.

    Forbid egregious pension spiking that is the usual in the County 37 Act plans–CalPERS does not allow such now. I’m sure we will see a list coming from the Legislature before the end of next week. Some will be good and some will be bad.
    The 1937 plans are all going BK there is no stopping that now we are well past the point of no return, but those plans need legislation that is uniform with CalTURDS.

    You won’t see ANY of that from the Legislature, not the end of next week, end of next month or end of next year-if these changes come it will be direct democracy at the ballet box, the Legislature is too corrupted to make the changes.

  123. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Enlighten us seesaw on what in your view constitutes sensible pension reform.

    Here, this is what is sensible to seesaw,\;

    All trough feeders receive $100K pension starting at age 50, indexed for inflation for life with lifetime free medical. :)

    That is seesaws “sensible” plan ;)

  124. Kidding Me Says:

    FWIW, I think some “formula” for computing a fair pension needs to be arrived at and then adjustments need to be made for current age and current pension. Sort of like an NPV calc(call it FPV) which is very common calc in the financial space and is the cornerstone of the Obama administration’s HAMP program. The devil is certainly in the details, these things can get tricky. Specifically, in the mortgage foreclosure space use of NPV to determine whether to foreclose or not is mandated by the Federal govt(for HAMP participants) but reality is that when somebody is going to lose their home it does not matter whether the formula is 1st grade arithmetic or PhD level math — the message is not easy to deliver and the messenger is shot, not the federal govt.

  125. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    LOL Kidding me—- you suggest all of this stuff like you invented the process!

    If you desire changes then stop typing like a troll in your single wide and go get involved in your democvracy! LOL Changes are made in the pensions ALL the time!

    God almighty the whining out here is deafening!

    LOLLMAO

  126. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    KM, Teddy has no idea what NPV is, you are about 20 pay grades above his intelligence level :)

  127. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted, I don’t know what the medical term for your disorder is but you are suffering from at least one and almost certainly multiple disorders. Get yourself looked at and get on some medication. I disagree with all the shit you utter but as one human being to another you need medical help.

    – You call everybody a troll because they share post frequently on this forum. What about you?

    – You accuse others of whining. I suppose you have a different term for chiming in often every 3rd or 4th comment clamoring for attention. Even when others are studiously ignoring the crap you utter you are like —> Me, me — look at me, don’t ignore me. I’ll do the craziest things just so I can get a sliver of your attention

    – You continue to utter total garbage and post garbage links too. No bearing to the conversation at hand

    – You’re not even in a fully conscious state to recognize who to bitch about and who to support. Witness the post earlier this AM when you bitched about a long post from spension before coming to your senses and realizing that you misfired. Betcha you were wanting an erase function after that post

    I can go on but you get the gist. Good luck.

  128. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Kidding?

    Are you high again?

    Of course I am a troll– are you just getting it? Wow.

    I never fully read the longer posts, well, like your last one. Theree is no value in it is there?

    If so, what value?

    I misfired earlier?

    Ah, how?

    Name one garbage link I posted that has nothing to do with the converstation?

  129. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    NPV? I prefer ith IRR valuation modaliies.

    LOL zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz nite nite trolls ™ !

  130. Kidding Me Says:

    With reference to my last posts and the subsequent responses.
    QED.

  131. Kidding Me Says:

    With reference to my last post and subsequent responses.
    QED.

  132. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    So, if I understand you correctly you mean to say that in your last post you directed me to a garbage link I posted AND somewhere I misfired??

    LOL you remain a joke.

  133. Kidding Me Says:

    LMAO really ROFLMAO off. You made my evening Ted, thanks.
    Is there a good samaritan on this board who would like to give Teddy boy here a refresher course in middle school math and logic.

  134. spension Says:

    A prominent problem in a pension calcs is… what to assume for future stock market gains. Although a long term average of 6%/year real gains (including dividends) is what you get looking at the US from 1800-2010, you cannot assume that every year is average. There have certainly been 30 year periods where the annualized real gain is close to 0. In other 30 year periods the annualized gain has been 8% or 10%.

    Then the problems have been: in a long up period, pension benefits are increased and employer (employee too) contributions are reduced. Everyone feels great, but the feeling is false. This happened 1985-2000 or so.

    A long down period results in calls for new employer contributions at the same time the economy is down. What we’ve got now.

    The trick is to avoid both by keeping benefits low enough that increases during down periods aren’t needed. Best, IMO, is constant contributions (like, say 10%+5% employer/employee), never varying, during up or down periods. Then fit the pension benefits in so that the probability of having to ask for extra taxpayer contributions in a down period is improbable at the 1 in 300 level.

  135. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Kidding– SAPOIROFLMAO–

    I think all of your fellow trolls are still waiting for your direction to my garbage link and misfire?

    Or did you forget you said that?

    Oh my– this is too easy.

  136. Kidding Me Says:

    Spension good observations. To extend your scenario, what happens when you structure a plan with a very low probability for extra contribution but you still hit that scenario. Caps on the backstop, no caps gotta backstop it no matter what, define upfront what the caps are instead of haggling downstream, gap to be shared, etc?

  137. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    …and in a related matter– Calpers up 358 mil today to 339.9 billion baby—–It’s a struggle!!

  138. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    kidding— so I guess you are one of those trolls who makes charges and then ignores and runs when called out.

    Thought so.

  139. Kidding Me Says:

    spension what are your views on completely restructuring public sector pay such that it becomes comparabe and competitive to private sector pay. So raise the current pay as needed and eliminate the long tail risk(and associated tricks) that the taxpayer currently takes. I know there are arguments made that DB is the only way to attract the “best and brightest” talent to public sector positions but is this genuinely the case or is this simply smoke and mirrors.

  140. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    That’s it Kidding– keep asking spension or ANYone questions to help you get by this akward moment of being called out and not having an answer….mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

  141. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Ted, I don’t know what the medical term for your disorder is but you are suffering from at least one and almost certainly multiple disorders.

    Teddy is sufering from multiple sockpuppetitis :)

  142. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Is there a good samaritan on this board who would like to give Teddy boy here a refresher course in middle school math and logic.
    ==
    Teddy needs 5th grade math mastery before he moves on to middle school math!

  143. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    poody— don’t you wish you could cofirm that?

  144. Beelzebub Says:

    Be kind to Teddy.

    The poor guy is going to pop a hemorrhoid!!!

  145. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    projecting again beezyboob?

  146. Beelzebub Says:

    Teddy, do queeq and u-haul ever go on vaca without you?

    Or are you guys like siamese triplets?

    Do queeq and u-haul ever have arguments with one another inside your head?

    Do they ever wake you up in the middle of the night because they have to go to the bathroom?

    Can you make at least one of them go away with medication?

    We’re dying to know!!! :D

  147. SeeSaw Says:

    Don’t decide for me what I recommend Rex–only I can say.. Nobody retires now on $100K at the age of 50, unless they are the rare one or two out of hundreds. I retired at the age of 72, so why would I recommend that everyone retire at age 50! And I get nowhere near 100K. And I certainly don’t get medical for life either. Anything I recommend is sensible.

    The Legislature will propose something again before the end of next week. The joint-conference committee already gave it to Brown two months ago, and he rejected it. They will present something–whether or not it goes forward–we will have to wait and see.

  148. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    I might ask the same about you and rexy poodle?

    But I won’t.

    Be
    cause
    i
    don’t
    care.

    (apologies to e e cummings)

  149. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    be patient Poodle boy. We have to wait and see…like big boys.

    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

  150. Captain Says:

    spension Says:”A prominent problem in a pension calcs is… what to assume for future stock market gains. Although a long term average of 6%/year real gains (including dividends) is what you get looking at the US from 1800-2010, you cannot assume that every year is average. There have certainly been 30 year periods where the annualized real gain is close to 0. In other 30 year periods the annualized gain has been 8% or 10%.

    Then the problems have been: in a long up period, pension benefits are increased and employer (employee too) contributions are reduced. Everyone feels great, but the feeling is false. This happened 1985-2000 or so.

    A long down period results in calls for new employer contributions at the same time the economy is down. What we’ve got now.

    The trick is to avoid both by keeping benefits low enough that increases during down periods aren’t needed. Best, IMO, is constant contributions (like, say 10%+5% employer/employee), never varying, during up or down periods. Then fit the pension benefits in so that the probability of having to ask for extra taxpayer contributions in a down period is improbable at the 1 in 300 level.”

    – We had reserves when CalPers was super funded. Then CalPERS lobbied to give the unions the reserves in the form of retroactive & increased pension benefits. At the same time they gave a pension holiday to everyone as part of the deal. Many cities used the new found money to further increase employee compensation. Who is responsible for that fiasco?

  151. Captain Says:

    “A CalPERS consultant, Wilshire, compares earnings (page 20) among public pension funds with more than $10 billion in investments. As of last Dec. 31, CalPERS earnings ranked dead last during the previous five years, 0.57 percent, the 99th percentile.”

    “Dead Last”

  152. Kidding Me Says:

    Ted – I have done more than my share of pro bono mental health counseling. Stop groveling for attention, makes you look pathetic. Oh boy, did I say too much for your gnat sized brain to absorb?

  153. Kidding Me Says:

    Folks take a look at the CA Legislative Analyst’s view on retiree benefits and Chp 9. It is on Pg 6 but the entire report is worth a read.
    http://lao.ca.gov/reports/2012/localgov/local-government-bankruptcy-080712.pdf

  154. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    Kidding—- I wonder why you keep calling me out here? Am I groveling or do I live in your head? Hmmmmm.

    And….are you going to answer the 2 questions? Or are you turning tail………lol……….again?

  155. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    KM is in Teddys head so often he should start paying Teddy rent.

    Teddy, we spank you so much it hurts ;)

  156. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy, do queeq and u-haul ever go on vaca without you?
    Or are you guys like siamese triplets?
    Do queeq and u-haul ever have arguments with one another inside your head?

    Beelz, Teddy took Queeg and Uhaul with him on that last vacation, all 3 MIA from CWD-not a single post from any of them the entire week………..it was so NICE not having the sock puppets around :)

  157. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    SeeSaw Says:
    August 23, 2012 at 12:29 am
    Don’t decide for me what I recommend Rex–only I can say.. Nobody retires now on $100K at the age of 50, unless they are the rare one or two out of hundreds.

    Craig Bowen of the Orinda/Moraga FD reitred at age 51 with a $285K pension (plus free medical) that has annual COLA’s, today his pension is over $300K. Add in the medical and it is going to be $325K.

    The Stockton Police Chief retired at age 52 with a $204K CalTURDS pension indexed for inflation for life. And he is now working with the DA at $90K per year. So much for pensions beinbg to support retired workers in old age. Only in gov does this scam continue on.

    There are two examples alone that were over $200K. So your comment is-as usual- so far off base it is on Mars.

  158. SeeSaw Says:

    Well there you have two rare examples–and, neither of them retired at age 50.

  159. Beelzebub Says:

    nice to have KM and captain around so rex and I dont have to work so hard.

    thanks, fellas!

  160. SeeSaw Says:

    Both Chiefs, Rex–not rank and file and obviously not union. Orinda/Moraga is Contra Costa County–37 Act–nothing new here.

  161. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Yes, both chiefs, both “retired” at age 51 or 52 with $204K-$285K pensions. Many others re getting $100K plus, the Stockton chief was a CalTURDS retiree.

  162. SeeSaw Says:

    Don’t suppose respective officials in the two Chief’s entities tendered them extra-generous compensation packages, as the result of individual negotiations do you? That’s something that does not happen in the ranks, except if they are beneficieries of the 37 Act spiking priviledges. I have spoken out against both types of issues before–so what is your problem with me?

  163. Beelzebub Says:

    I don’t think seesaw is thinking too straight these days, rex.

    Any cop who worked 30 years for a PD makes well over $100k in salary. As long as he makes $110k his pension is $100k. Seesaw – you are splittin’ hairs. Does it really matter if these people retire @ 50 or @ 52? Stay focused. We are talking about HUGE pensions at EARLY ages. That is what is bankrupting the system.

    You people worked in an environment where you were treated like little children. You felt it was someone elses reponsibility to take care of you. You had all the safety nets, to include bulletproof job security no matter how lazy or incompetent you might have been. And that mindset has followed you all the way into your 70’s. Very sad.

    From your writings I don’t think you’ve ever really grown up, seesaw. Just my opinion.

  164. SeeSaw Says:

    The rant has always been, “These guys get 100k plus pensions, AT THE AGE OF 50″. Don’t lie, Beeze–that has been the rant and you know it. If a PS workers spent 30 years at the job, it would not be unusual that he was getting a pretty large salary–I have never doubted that, even though they don’t get that much in the entity where I worked.

    The payments into the pension plan are based on the salaries–so they might get big salaries, but actuaries determine the funding mechanism–so don’t say that the large pensions are bankrupting the system. The system went down with the housing crash and the global financial collapse of 2008. The pensions might be too large for your taste, but that is not why the system has lost money!

    I was a public sector worker, Beeze, Pure and simple. What I did was work for a living, just like whatever you did. I had no bulletproof job security. I was not lazy or incompetent and if I were, I would have been fired.

    You truely are a collossal jerk–just my opinion.

  165. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Don’t suppose respective officials in the two Chief’s entities tendered them extra-generous compensation packages, as the result of individual negotiations do you?
    The Stockton Chief was CalTURDS, no spiking, nothing, just 90% of his pay which was like $235K. But there are PLENTY of others who have $100K pensions at age 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, etc. You seem to like to try to deflect by claiming no one retires at age 50-BS, many do. As to “negotiations” what difference does it make, collective or individually, they are all capable of $100K pensions at age 50, you seem to forget the base salary alone is well over $100K for the GED edcuated CA cop and FF.

    What I did was work for a living, just like whatever you did. I had no bulletproof job security.

    More seesaw BS, gov trough feeders have civil service job protection, where they are entitled to due process as their jobs are considered “property”. Try to fire a teacher at any CA public school and see how many years and how many millions it takes. You are such a lair seesaw. No bullet proof job security my butt. Comments liek that prove what a tool you are seesaw, b/c that comment is so easily shot down.

    The pensions might be too large for your taste, but that is not why the system has lost money!

    LOL…yeah right seesa,w $10 million pensions for HS educated cops and FF’s at age 50, 51 52 etc…..the only ones who have a “taste” for that scam are the scammers-like you. And once again you prove why no one takes you serouslym, b/c you are still defending that BS, using terms like “..too large for your tastes…”, you have no credibility with anyone except your scammer buddies.

    Beelz, where seesaws “jerk” title like a badge of honor. It beats fraud, conman, scammer, rip off artist, Ms Madoff by a country mile :)

  166. SeeSaw Says:

    You may have a “Jerk” button just like Beeze’s, Rex.

  167. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, did you see that Mike Gennaco came out with is report on the FPD yesterday. What did I tell you about being connected in to get those jobs!!!! Turns out some Yahoo’s son, or brother, or something, was hired DESPITE having a recent DUI uner his belt, and then getting a NEW DUI while in academy training. Can’t make that stuff up. No one who is not connected in would even get hired with a recent DUI, much less getting a second one in academy training and stay on the payroll .

    And you know Cyclops was connected in b/c the guy who was doing the FPD hiring was his old supervisor at LAPD. NO ONE with only one eye would ever get hired in LE without cgetting onnected in. And Porky Pig Manny Ramos was probably an affirmative action/lawsuit consent decree hire. But we MUST compthese GED Wonders $200K-$300K with OT because if you don’t the private sector will sweep them up, as they are the best and brightest!!!!!

    BTW-Cylops was and us receiving a 50% tax free LAPD disability pension, in addition to his FPD salary. And Fullerton is an UPSCALE area of an UPSCALE county. The line of applicants for thos GED cop and FF jobs there is 40 blocks long…….

  168. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    You may have a “Jerk” button just like Beeze’s, Rex.
    :)

    Thank you Ms. Madoff! I shall wear your title with honor ;)

  169. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I don’t think seesaw is thinking too straight these days, rex.
    Any cop who worked 30 years for a PD makes well over $100k in salary. As long as he makes $110k his pension is $100k. Seesaw – you are splittin’ hairs. Does it really matter if these people retire @ 50 or @ 52

    Beelz, seesaw is a spin machine, nothing more. She spins and spins, deflects and deflects, and hides the ball, that is what she does.

    She wants to split hairs over age 50, when we have examples of $300K at age 51. That is pure spin from her…It would be like me going into traffic court with a speeding ticket of 150MPH and saying ” But Judge!!!! that cop is lying!!!…. he said I was going 150MPH, but i was ONLY going 149MPH!!”

    If we did that is court the judge would laugh at us, and then throw us in jail, yet seesaw tries to say the same thing with a straight face.

    seesawm you have no credibility, zero, nothing, nada

    I thought many months ago you were some what reasonable, but that thought went out the window almost as many months ago……

  170. spension Says:

    I for one can’t stomach the >$100K pensions, they make me wretch. That 2011 Stanford report by Joe Nation (Table 4, p. 9) did say that the average pension of *recent Career retirees* was $68,000 or so (CalPERS – $66,828, CalSTRS – $67,980). I think a cap at $100K index for inflation would be good… but wouldn’t solve the whole problem…. look at the averages.

    As for Kidding’ me’s question about what to do if a 1/300 fluctuation happens… BTW, our current downturn is like those of the 1930’s or some in the late 1800’s. So it is maybe a 1/50 fluctuation.

    I’d cut benefits in any case. Because in a downturn, everyone is suffering. But I wouldn’t piss away the opportunity to reform Wall Street and banks, which we’ve done in this downturn.

  171. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    It’s funny how the trolls run and hide when they can’t answer questions…..mmmmmmm……lol

    another day of spinning up trolls!

  172. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    spension—- “we’ve reformed wall street”?

    lol

    You mean the President has over the repubteabaggers objections!

  173. spension Says:

    I meant we pissed away the opportunity to reform Wall Street.

  174. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    I think you had a Freudian slip.

  175. spension Says:

    More like unclear grammar. In any case, we *have* pissed away our opportunity to reform Wall Street in this downturn.

  176. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Eloquent.

  177. SeeSaw Says:

    Spension, that average pension of $68,000 for recent career retirees that you quote, is from a cherry-picked group of recent CalPERS retirees who all had careers of 30 years or more. The average pension of all CalPERS retirees from the most recent year reported, 2010-2011 is $3065/mo. The average career span for all retirees is 20 years, and the average age is 60.

  178. spension Says:

    SeeSaw…. sure. But I think most people want to look at the 30 year and greater employees… I think most people in private sector work that long prior to retiring.

  179. TSTEELE CSM Says:

    LOL spension— you honestly think MOST private sector workers work 30 years for the same employer???

  180. SeeSaw Says:

    I had 36.4 years service credit. I don’t get 100k+ and neither do 98% of the other CalPERS retirees.

  181. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    LOL spension— you honestly think MOST private sector workers work 30 years for the same employer???

    LOL, the true GED Wonder isposting his usual BS nonsense ;)

    In the real world workers work for many employers-they are not gifted lifetime employement where you cannot be fired short of a “strike” felony, but the length is MORE than 30 years, in the real world it is closer to 50 years. Teddy with another one of his 5th grade spin jobs, never fails to amuse the uneducated I guess-like him!

  182. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I had 36.4 years service credit. I don’t get 100k+ and neither do 98% of the other CalPERS retirees.

    But that 2%who do get $100K or more are TAKING 20% of the CalTURDS pension payments seesaw.

    Now seesaw, can you do basic 3rd grade math? That 2% is doubling every 1-2 years, what happens when that 2% hits 10% four years from now in 2016?????

    Here, I will help you out- 2% x 5= 10%…………5 x 20%= 100% ;)

    Dats the ticket! When that 2% $100K makes it up to 10% that 10% will be conbsuming ALL of CalTURDS money, in 4-5 years.

    Like taking candy from a seesaw…errrr…baby ;)

  183. Beelzebub Says:

    Rex, IMO Seesaw is a selfish old woman who endorses a minority segment of our society getting showered with special employment privileges at the expense of the majoritiy. Public workers are nothing more than pampered parasites. If there were something special about them then I would reconsider my opinion. But there’s nothing special about them. With their job habits – most would not last in the private sector. A workplaces that gives a worker special job security rights breeds a workforce of lazy and incompetent workers. That’s human nature. And to give them higher average pay and much bigger retirement benefits, well, it just adds insult to injury for those in the private sector who work harder, get less pay, yet must finance these massive retirements for the leeches and parasites.

    If justice is ever served the entire system will come crashing down and these parasites will get shaken loose from the host.

    The system will never do it voluntarily (like what happened in the private sector when defined pensions were eliminated). It will have to be an involutary act that is forced upon them by the laws of mathematics.

  184. SeeSaw Says:

    I don’t wail my days and hours away, whining about those who get more than I, Rex. Why should I, or anyone else, sit around calculating someone else’s future pension increases. There are investment managers and actuaries to determine those things, and lay out the plans to deal with the issues You really should get a life, or get a job! Or you could move to Cuba, and as soon as you open you mouth, you will have a bed and food and shelter and you won’t have to worry about your taxes.

  185. SeeSaw Says:

    You and Beeze could be bunk mates.

  186. Kidding Me Says:

    spension agree with your view that we have pissed away the opportunity to reform Wall St. After Lehman, Bear etc there was an opportunity to get tough with Wall St but the Great One and the Dems caved in. The taxpayer is truly the one phucked in the middle of all this — Wall St on one side and the Govt/Pension mafia on the other both hell bent on picking the taxpayer pockets.

  187. TSTEELE CSM Says:

    LOL Beezyboob– that’s what I thought you’d say!

    In the real recruiting world it takes $ and bennees to keep employees long term— since you’ve never managed anything except, well, maybe a long bathroom break, you wouldn’t know!

    LOL

    OOOOOOOuch this is easy!

  188. TSTEELE CSM Says:

    Kidding me— did you ever want to answer my 2 questions?

    Or are you still hiding?

  189. Beelzebub Says:

    “Beelz, did you see that Mike Gennaco came out with is report on the FPD yesterday”

    Yeah, I did, rex. And did you notice that after Gennaco gave his report that 3 of the cops who participated in the fatal bludgeoning of Kelly Thomas were put back on the streets? All 3 of those pigs watched as Ciccinelli beat Kelly in the face and head with his metal taser gun. If they were civilians all 3 would have been charged with murder since they were accomplices. They watched their fellow cop brutally murder a 135 lb homeless schizophrenic and never lifted a finger to stop him. Not only that. They held Kelly down so that he would not defend himself even though he was repeatedly screaming “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe, please stop, please stop….” as his dying words as they continued to beat and taser him repeatedly. He was also pleading for his dad to help as blood poured from his head.

    At the very least – all those pigs should lose their jobs. But not in a government world where the unions promote and faciliate murder.

    In a government world all get over a year’s free vacation and then are put back on the job. They must be laughing their asses off.

    Not much different from the mafia, rex. And I mean that sincerely.

  190. Beelzebub Says:

    “You mean the President has over the repubteabaggers objections!”

    The president hasn’t done crap to reform Wall Street. Obama is Wall Street’s biggest shoe shine boy. Look at Corzine who took $1.6 BILLION from segregated customer accounts @ MF Global where he was CEO. No charges. No prosecution. Of course, Corzine happens to be Obama’s biggest campaign fund promoter. heh. I just read the other day that Corzine is considering starting a hedge fund after he drove MF Global into bankruptcy!!! HAH! And he will be allowed to do it too!!!

    Obama has been a Wall Street shoe shine boy and lapdog for 3.5 years, ever since he stepped into office. Moreso than Bush ever was. Remember when he told us that he was going to come down hard on the ‘fat cats’ back in 2008??? HAH!

    Fing liar.

  191. Kidding Me Says:

    What is rather interesting to me is that public sector workers while waging war against taxpayers who are tired of getting their pockets picked are ALSO waging war against their own. Increasing payouts due to pensions and all the other abuses(spiking, decades of sick time cashed in at the departure pay rate, airtime, etc) are directly causing service reductions — less cops, less ff, less library hours, etc. Things should get interesting especially in Stockton when retirees are pitted against current workers for a share of the shrinking Stockton pie. Things are getting interesting in Stockton — there at least now appears to be the thinking that protection of benefits is not a done deal as both Calpers and the city was projecting several weeks back.

  192. Kidding Me Says:

    Beelze agree with your statement that Obama has done squat. And in the case of Dems it is even more deceitful. Repubs at least make no bones about who they are looking after, Obama has made grandiose statements and has done diddly squat.

  193. Beelzebub Says:

    “Beelze agree with your statement that Obama has done squat. And in the case of Dems it is even more deceitful”

    The republicans only take Wall Street money.

    The democracts take both Wall Street and unions money.

    They are the biggest street whores on the planet.

  194. Kidding Me Says:

    Yea and now Steinberg, etc are feeling the heat so they’re committing to(at least publicly) pension reform even at the cost of “displeasing” union allies. Or it could all be a nice public facade with no real intent to do anything concrete. These guys can give Hollywood a run for their money in terms of their acting abilities, Janus faced mofos.

  195. Kidding Me Says:

    Stockton retirees sitting tight in FL or in safe non-Stockton areas of the country, I can totally understand could give a damn whether Stockton melts down or not BUT for those in Stockton, amazing to see how they’re willing to see Stockton creeping towards anarchy here as long as their payout is unaffected. Perhaps there aren’t many remaining in Stockton — the smart ones have surely departed by now. I’m intrigued to see how the Stockton scenario plays out — quite an amazing spectacle of a modern day brazen robbery of $100 Million.

  196. Beelzebub Says:

    Obamacare is nothing more than a huge windfall for Wall Street.

    Think about this: Now citizens will be FORCED to buy health insurance policies resulting in a HUGE revenue stream for the insurance companies which are all tied into the banks. We are talking about HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of new discretionary consumer dollars being fed to the Wall Street fat cats each year!!! And if you don’t pay up – the government hits you with a HUGE tax and if you don’t pay that tax – the IRS comes after you and vigorously collects just as if you failed to pay your proper income tax obligation. They are hiring 16,000 NEW IRS agents just for that specific purpose.

    I have been telling you the definition of FASCISM. I will repeat it:

    FASCISM IS THE MERGER OF STATE AND CORPORATE POWERS.

    Yes, it’s that simple. Don’t complicate matters. Face the truth. Your nation is moving to fascist rule!!!

    And while you MUST purchase health insurance or pay a substantial fine (TAX) you MUST continue to pay the medical bills for illegal foreigners who infiltrate you neighborhoods.

    YES – ILLEGAL FOREIGNERS ARE EXEMPTED FROM OBAMACARE!!! HAH!

    ILLEGAL FOREIGNERS HAVE MORE FING RIGHTS THAN YOU DO!!! HAH!!!

    YES, WE ARE TURNING INTO A FACIST STATE. FACE THE FACTS!!!! :(

  197. TSTEELE CSM Says:

    Oh— I have sooo enjoyed spinning you trolls up this am! The microwaives must be penetrating the buker this morning!

    Teddy Boy

  198. Beelzebub Says:

    My truth is too strong for Teddy the Parasite.

    He cannot debunk any of the facts that I present.

    So, being the village idiot that he is, Teddy must scribble down one liners as a diversion.

    HAH! :D

  199. Beelzebub Says:

    That shut ‘em all up, didn’t it??? :D

  200. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    LOL…doesn’t take much to shut Teddy Troll up ;) He left his brain in 3rd grade :)

  201. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    so far you two troll clowns have shown me zip—- never worth a substanticve reply.

    But I do enjoy watching you both spin up!

  202. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I don’t wail my days and hours away, whining about those who get more than I, Rex.

    I know you don’t seesaw, because you’re not the one getting ripped off, you are doing the ripping off…..sort of like a bank robber saying of those he robs that they shouldn’t “whine” because he is robbing them :)

    Oh seesaw, you are so sad……………….you don’t get it and never will. You just don’t have the brian power for it.

  203. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    :)

  204. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    ironic to see the Poodle ™ calling another person oput here dumb :)

  205. Kidding Me Says:

    FWIW, I don’t the 100K+ pensions as disgusting(and in many cases undeserved) as they are is the issue. The issue is the collective weight of all pension payouts. I read yesterday that Brown’s Nov ballot initiative for raising taxes still has support which is a surprise to me — no idea whether this is reality or Dem controlled spin.

  206. TSTEELE CSM Says:

    the temp tax hike will pass.

  207. TSTEELE CSM Says:

    The good news !

    http://www.californiahealthline.org/articles/2012/8/23/poll-55-of-voters-back-browns-tax-hike-plan-40-back-mungers-plan.aspx

  208. SeeSaw Says:

    Oh really, Rex! My former CM gets six times more than I. I don’t whine that I am getting ripped off, and I am happy for that person. I just mention it as information, since you think I get so much. For you to accuse me of ripping other people off, and calling me dumb, is quite petty! Its too bad that you have such a sad life, that you must resort to insulting people you have never met, because they happen to be financially stable, and want to refute a little of the pile of misinformation out there, in the blogosphere.

  209. SeeSaw Says:

    All you people that complain about using your taxes to pay into public pensions–why don’t you do a personal survey and determine just how much, of your own money, you do pay. It would probably turn out like the survey that was done for NASA, when it was funded by the Fed. Government, and a taxpayer complained. The results of the survey showed that the personal tax liability for each American citizen, per year, to fund NASA was one-half of one cent.

  210. Beelzebub Says:

    rex, remember that Marine Sgt. named Loggins who was shot dead by a orange county cop in San Clemented as he sat in his car only a couple feet in front of his 2 minor daughters for disobeying a command??? Afterwards the cops kidnapped the daughters for 13 hours, interrogated them and REFUSED the mother to have access to them!! I’m not making this crap up!!! It really happened!!!

    The shooting happened back in February. That’s closing in on EIGHT MONTHS and the DA has failed to provide a public report or ruling on the shooting and the coroner’s office has refused to released the autopsy report!!!

    It didn’t even take eight months for the Warren Commission to report back on the JFK assassination for Christ sakes!!!!

    I suspect that the DA’s office KNOWS that the cop is dirty and that’s the reason he’s sitting on it. He knows the family hired a top-gun attorney and that the truth is eventually going to come out – so he can’t whitewash it UNLESS the county settles with the family beforehand. At that point all the dirt gets buried from public view and the cop walks away unscathed. So I bet they are working overtime on a settlement to save the cop’s butt. Oh, btw, he’s back on the job too. Did you know that??? HAH!

    Think about the trauma those 2 little girls went through when they saw that cop put a bullet through their dad’s brain. God almighty. Some of the blood probably splattered on them in the process. Disgusting!!! :(

  211. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    mmmmmmmmmm the temp tax hike continues to poll better and better! Seems like another famous rex poodle predictiion about to go down in flames !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    0 for 10 babbbbbby!

    http://www.californiahealthline.org/articles/2012/8/23/poll-55-of-voters-back-browns-tax-hike-plan-40-back-mungers-plan.aspx

  212. Beelzebub Says:

    Eventually they will turn California into an economic wasteland.

    The producers will simply leave.

    All you will have here are parasites and leeches.

    California will have 50% or more of the nation’s welfare recipients (today we have 33% with only 12% of the nation’s population).

    I hope the State implodes economically. I really do. I hope the muni bond markets crash and it cascades into a virtual economic meltdown. Why do I hope for it? Because that is the ONLY thing that will correct the inequities and reset the excesses. That’s why. I have the state’s best interests at heart.

    The implosion will come. It has to. What we see today simply cannot continue. It’s only a question of ‘when?’.

  213. SeeSaw Says:

    Oh sure you do! I hope you are scouring brochures–there are 20 Righ-to-Work states to choose from. They deserve your presence–I will be glad to write you a letter of recommendation.

  214. Beelzebub Says:

    The greedy leeches on these boards are some of the most selfish people that I have ever communicated with.

    Some would probably steal the gold from their dead relatives teeth if given the chance!

  215. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    LOL yes Beezyboob enjoy your exit from Calif!

  216. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    All you people that complain about using your taxes to pay into public pensions–why don’t you do a personal survey and determine just how much, of your own money, you do pay

    Another statement dumber than a bag of rocks. How about YOU stop ripping people off Ms Madoff, teh trough feeders have more spin than a Teddy sock puppet :)

    Teddy, the pension tax is DOA, you have the bet and you keep running from it-as you should, you don’t want to pay Rex $100 for another one of your failed predictions.

    BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  217. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I hope you are scouring brochures–there are 20 Righ-to-Work states to choose from. They deserve your presence–I will be glad to write you a letter of recommendation.

    OK, can’t stay mad at seesaw because she brings so much comedic value to the boards….just when I thought seesaw should be banned again I see this and LOL! :)

  218. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I hope the State implodes economically. I really do. I hope the muni bond markets crash and it cascades into a virtual economic meltdown. Why do I hope for it? Because that is the ONLY thing that will correct the inequities and reset the excesses. That’s why. I have the state’s best interests at heart.

    The implosion will come.

    The implosion is already here Beelz, we know that with muni’s going BK left and right……. and LA is BK right now, they just haven’t filed yet.

    It won’t become offical until Nov 6, 2012, when Clowns pension tax gets spanked into Teddys sock puppet’s booty!

  219. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    0 for 10 babbbbbby!

    http://www.californiahealthline.org/articles/2012/8/23/poll-55-of-voters-back-browns-tax-hike-plan-40-back-mungers-plan.aspx

    LOL dance troll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  220. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    10-0 baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Thanks for spamming the board for the millionth time with your public union link !

    $100 baby-put up or shut up!!!

  221. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    LOL— Your revisionist hx is dull! You are 0 for 9 little friend! Remember the 3 losses you took on the cops lawsuit cases very famously on the OCR site before you got the boot? LOL We do!

  222. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    it must kill you to see the tax hike polling so well? LOLOLMAO !!!

    Like it killed you on the OC lawsuit!!!!!!!

  223. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    oh…..and little buddy, know what? Calpers went up to 239.7 billion today!! Let me do the math for you— up 100 mil……mmmmmmm

  224. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    CalTURDS, still down $143 BILLION Baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    46% funded, BK.

  225. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Pension hike DOA, Rex has never been wrong and that aint changing now ;) Trough feeders beware ;)

  226. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    10-0 BABY!

  227. Kidding Me Says:

    Agree on the statement that the state will face very challenging times ahead a la Greece. Things can stay crazy for a long time, sometimes much longer than forecasted but not forever. Stiffing creditors may win the pensioners a temporary victory but the victory comes at the price of higher interest rates. Greece has literally been begging Europe for debt payment relief and more money for quite some time and it’s not pretty. The civil unrest in Greece is not pretty too. Unless CA plans to operate by only using internally generated cash flow, the bond markets will punish by demanding rates that CA will not be able to afford. Predicting timing is near impossible but predicting the certainty of the event is very possible.

  228. Beelzebub Says:

    KM, Greece and Spain are done. Have you checked out their bond rates lately? Even the progressive liberal economists agree both are done. Those in the know are preparing to protect themselves from the fallout. And once Greece/Spain fall Italy ain’t far behind with Portugal and Ireland on deck. The germans will refuse to be their ATM machines. Germany will return to the d-mark before that happens. You should pay attention to what is happening politically over in Germany.Then it comes across the ocean. BOOM!

    You can’t believe the bank’s balance sheet. You can’t believe the numbers coming from the fed or state government. You can believe the lying politicians when they promise reform – remember the Stupid, errr…., I mean the Super Committee that was going to save us AFTER the politicians increased the debt limit by $2T??? heh. How did that work out? The big cuts are supposed to come in January. Fat fing chance. That’s why you’re starting to hear whispers about the upcoming FISCAL CLIFF….. if they keep kicking the can down the road by refusing to take our medicine we get downgraded again by the rating agencies – unless they get bought off.

    Whatever they do….the math doesn’t work. I have no idea how much longer they can cover the pig with lipstick. To be honest, I thought it would all blow up in 2011.

    I suspect the next crash will happen suddenly. It won’t be 500 pts down one day and 700 the next. I think you will wake up one morning and find the DOW down about 6000 points when they can’t hide the damage any longer. When Mr. Math takes over. That day is coming. I just don’t know when.

  229. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Unless CA plans to operate by only using internally generated cash flow, the bond markets will punish by demanding rates that CA will not be able to afford.
    Internally generated cash flow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KM we are not the feds, we cannot print money-at least real money :)

  230. Beelzebub Says:

    Cali will have to rely on a bailout from the feds. And the feds will have to print to make that bailout materialize. Bernanke is already hinting that QE3 is on the way. And then watch your food and gas prices explode.

    The only options they have now are printing fiat dollars or starting a big war.

    I think Israel attacks Iran prior to the election to push Obama over the winners line. And then we are totally screwed.

    Obama will claim that Israel did it without his authorization (BS) but once the fighting starts Obama will say he had no other choice than to involve US forces to contain the fallout.

    None of this will happen unless they get the buy-in from both Russia and China through back-door deals.

    And, as usual, Americans will salivate as they watch it all on the 6 o’clock news.

    Americans never saw a war we didn’t love – as long as the missiles don’t land stateside.

  231. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Cali will have to rely on a bailout from the feds. And the feds will have to print to make that bailout materialize. Bernanke is already hinting that QE3 is on the way. And then watch your food and gas prices explode.

    Beelz, all the QE I and II did was keep the Wall Street frauds/banks flush with cash and what was left was funneled to the states to plug their budget holes. The states should have been FORCED to deal with their budgets and not be bailed out by tax payers. So much for those “shovel ready” jobs that we now know was just a big fraud.

    I do not think for one second the feds will bail out any state-especially CA.

    Why would Dork Bernanke do QE III??? The banks have plenty of cash now, what will more do for them????? They will do the same thing as they are now, just sit on the $$$$.

    No, there won’t be a QEIII— QE I and II were disasters, as was TARP. The end will officially be here on Nov 6 when Clown gets his pension taxes spanked like a Teddy sock puppet in a time out beat down :)

  232. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    lol

    looks like i spun the trolls up all night!

    Rexpoodle does not like that the temp tax hike is polling so well.

    Rexy— remember your predictions on the oc cops case? LOL mmmm

    0 for 10 come Nov!

    Pension envy rides again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  233. Kidding Me Says:

    A fed bailout of CA is possible but will come at a price. With a Dem President – revoke of Prop 13 almost certainly will be one of the asks. With a Repub President – cuts to costs including pensions. Either party will extract their pound of flesh. And that is still no guarantee – because you can bet that the rest of the States will cry bloody murder before any significant bailout is permitted. Also the floodgates will open once CA is bailed out. The Great One’s home state will be right next in line with their begging bowl.

    I still believe that Sacramento will sacrifice Stockton and other cities to save themselves and ensure continuation of ability to borrow. If future pension benefits have to be cut, they will. AND if things really go nuclear and accrued benefits have to be cut they will though personally I do not believe that cuts to accrued benefits are going to come anytime soon. Cuts to future benefits will buy some time till the next crisis strikes.

  234. Beelzebub Says:

    “So much for those “shovel ready” jobs that we now know was just a big fraud”

    HAH! Shovel ready jobs!!! HAH! :D

    Thanks for reminding me, rex. That was another load of crap that the bait swallowers bought hook, line and sinker!!!! HAH!

    I don’t see the networks playing any of his replays from 2008 when Obama told us that if we made less than $250k that we wouldn’t have to pay an extra dime for Obamacare and that we would get the same health care plans as congress!!! And when somebody asked him if it was just another tax in disguise he feigned like he was insulted by the question. HAH! He said that the questioner was only trying to disparage him and support his detractors!!! HAH!

    Now the choice is to buy a $1500/mo health care policy or pay a $700 tax to the gov. Either way it’s a BIG BIG WIN for big business and Uncle Sam!!! The middle class peasant get F’ed again in a BIG BIG WAY. We are living under fascist rule. THE MERGER OF STATE AND CORPORATE POWERS! Any idiot can see it. Look how the gov has given all the Wall Street mafia boys a pass. Look at how Obamacare works!!! FASCISM IN PROGRESS!!!

    Obama is the biggest fing LIAR we’ve had in the White House. He claims to be one thing – but in reality – he’s the exact opposite.

    He’s a bigger fing LIAR than Nixon, Reagan, Clinton and Bush2.

  235. SeeSaw Says:

    What a vivid imagination, KM! Federal government asking CA to repeal Prop. 13? What thin air did you pull that out of?

  236. Beelzebub Says:

    All the pols want to get the elections out of the way so that they can get back to business.

    The FISCAL CLIFF is approaching in January. And we are approaching the top of the revised debt ceiling – so they are going to have to increase that too by another couple $trillion$ dollars! Even the fing Tea-Party patriots will vote for the increase – just like they did last time!!! HAH! But they have to wait until all the votes are counted and 95% of the incumbents are re-elected before they crap on us again! You notice that NONE of the pols are talking about what we’re going to do about THEIR PROMISE to make HUGE cuts in January since the Stupid Committee folded and REFUSED to address the debt crisis. I can already tell you what they will do!!! THEY WILL DROP BACK 10 AND PUNT – JUST LIKE THEY DID LAST TIME. A NEW $2T WILL GET ADDED INCREASING THE CEILING TO OVER $18T!!!! THAT’S WHAT WILL HAPPEN!!!

    The sooner this blows up the better. I’m getting impatient. The longer it goes on the worse the economic explosion will be. It’s like a pressure cooker with no release valve. Sooner or later it goes BOOM! None of them care about doing the RIGHT THING!! Their only concern is protecting their own collective political asses. The peasants can twist in the wind!!!

  237. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Ohhhhhhhhh noooooooooooooooo Mr. Bill– the sky is falling—– wow— the trolls seem agitated today?

    Is there not enough tin foil down in the bunker?

  238. Beelzebub Says:

    If they ever repealed Prop 13 you would see an uprising that would curl the hair on the back of your necks. In this economy most people simply wouldn’t have the money to pay the additional tax.

    I think the chance of that happening are slim and none. it would increase your current property tax by 3x-5x’s.

    It would also crash the RE markets in California – something that is already on life support.

    The commoners are starting to wake up w/ regards to the massive trough feeder pensions. Look @ San Jose and San Diego if you question that.

    The response from the legislature is to offer the commoners a bite of the poisoned pension apple like you’ve seen in AB1234, etc…. The pols are playing the ‘come join us’ card. Right out of the union playbook. They want to add the private commoners to gov control to stop their complaints. Naturally, the private commoners pensions would be nothing like the public pensions we see. They would throw the commoners a few crumbs to shut them up!!! HAH!

    I read these swine like a cheap penguin paperback. They think they fool us!!! HAH! I am 4-5 steps ahead of all of them. They don’t fool me for a NY minute.

  239. Kidding Me Says:

    Beelze and seesaw — I have no idea if a Prop 13 repeal request will be made or not but google is your friend in terms of the speculation on that action. AFAIK — CA is the only State in the country with such a tight restriction on prop taxes and long term it simply cannot hold. If Propr 13 has to hold, something else obviously has to give somewhere. CA had one of the largest property price booms between 98 and 06 and yet the State got squat out of it even as many many homeowners were happy during those years to treat their home as an ATM. All the weird things that CA does wrt to the rest of the country(Prop 13 being just one example) are up on the table in the event of CA extending the begging bowl. Not claiming it will happen, stating that it will be on the table.

  240. Kidding Me Says:

    I know I am opening a can of worms here but FWIW, Prop 13 is a highly regressive tax. I don’t know what the current CA Dem stance on Prop 13 is but generally speaking, Dems have been pro repeal of Prop 13 in the past.

  241. SeeSaw Says:

    Dems have been pro repeal of Prop. 13, in the past? Who? Certainly not the Governor.

  242. Beelzebub Says:

    KM, you know that the dems are classic political whores. And the dems don’t disciminate. They take money from any potential client, as long as the bid price is met.

    At least the Republicans are somewhat selective. The dems will bend over for Wall Street, the environmentalists, the unions, big construction, retail, billionaire capitalists, the American Association of Bankers, etc…

    The dems will turn a trick for any customer as long as the bid price is met.

  243. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Beezy boob—— Please answer Seewsaw’s question—- WHO? and What and when did this person say it?

    Or are you blowing El Rushbo smoke as usual?

  244. Kidding Me Says:

    seesaw, google is your friend. Here’s 1 link, there’s many more if you search
    http://www.smartvoter.org/2012/06/05/ca/scl/vote/engstrom_h/paper2.html

  245. spension Says:

    Is this a place where California public pensions get discussed in a serious and quantitative manner? Or random political rants?

  246. Kidding Me Says:

    Here’s another link from the LA Mayor
    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2012/03/villaraigosa-has-prop-13-in-his-sights.html

    Yes I know the reference is to business and not residential but once you open the door to Prop 13 by even a crack, everything is up for grabs and as beelze says above, Dems will do anything — sticking Prop 13 to the entire CA taxpayer base to protect unions is pretty tame stuff for Dems.

  247. Kidding Me Says:

    spension good point, quantitative trumps qualitative but as you can see on this forum even hard quantitative numbers from one side are being refuted by the other. It’s all about picking the numbers that suit your argument. Numbers can be used to fit any story that one wants to create.

  248. Beelzebub Says:

    Obama is such an ass.

    Did you read the latest?

    Insider british sources say that Obama contacted the various euro parliaments asking them not to allow Greece to exit the eurozone until after the Nov 6 American elections. HAH!

    As it stands now Greece has one foot on the banana peel and the other one out the door – with FIVE consecutive years of recession and a consistent FAILURE to meet their deficit targets and the terms of their obligatory economic reforms that justified the tiered bailout agreement. It’s only a matter of time. And the real cause for concern is that if Greece goes down it takes Spain and Italy with it!!! HAH!

    So Obama is basically showing his cards to the other international players at the casino table. What a total ass. Consider the damage that he is doing to international negotiations. In the next month I expect the headlines to read: “GREECE DEMANDS ANOTHER $200B BAILOUT NOW – OR ELSE THEY PULL THE PLUG”.

    Obama is a total fricken idiot. Not only does he crap in his own nest, he craps in the nests of other nations that have ON-GOING SENSITIVE ECONOMIC NEGOTIATIONS that could determine the fate of the solvency of the developed world!!!

    What a selfish *******. Only thinking about himself and his power.

    If this loser is re-elected we are done!!!

  249. SeeSaw Says:

    Prop. 13 is, at this time, a very bi-partisan issue. The Dems are people too, and I would trust them way before I would the Repubs when it comes to protecting the poor and middle-class. I was against the prop. in 1978, because I considered it “overkill” and I thought it would kill off the construction industry, where my spouse made his living. Ironically, I am one of the original beneficieres of the measure. It seems that the commercial property owners have a way to avoid transferring titles, on paper, when a business is sold, and of course, homeowners do not have such a loop-hole. I think any discussions that have been held in political groups have been geared toward closing that loop-hole. I don’t think we should touch it right now–maybe in the far future–after the economy rebounds.

    Yes, Spension, this forum is supposed to be about CalPERS investments, but all it takes is one commenter to run things off the track, and then the train is going in a completely different direction. The owners of this blog have been quite patient, considering how far off course this train has traveled.

  250. Kidding Me Says:

    Desperate times call for desperate measures, there are no sacred cows. It’s all about whose ox is gored when. At the federal level, property tax write off was considered a sacred cow, no more now. Same for CA, the sacred cows will very much become tainted as the state descends in deeper doo doo. Pension reform, future benefits, accrued benefits, Prop 13, immigration, etc.

  251. SeeSaw Says:

    Prop. 13 is sancrosanct in CA. It will not be lumped in with other sacred cows.

  252. spension Says:

    Kidding Me says: even hard quantitative numbers from one side are being refuted by the other.

    Yup, for example, I say a 0.5% expense ratio is less than a 2% expense ratio, but Rex and BZ refute that by saying 2% is less than 0.5%.

  253. Beelzebub Says:

    “Yup, for example, I say a 0.5% expense ratio is less than a 2% expense ratio, but Rex and BZ refute that by saying 2% is less than 0.5%”

    Jesus Christ. Would you get off the expense ratio merry-go-round alrady?!

    Do you have any idea how stupid it makes you look?

  254. Beelzebub Says:

    “The owners of this blog have been quite patient, considering how far off course this train has traveled”

    The blog owners likely hate Obama as much if not more than I do. :D

  255. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    TROLL TEDDY IS WOUND UP SUPER TIGHT THIS MONRING.

    10-0 baby! NOV 6, $100 TROLL TEDDY:)

    bam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  256. Beelzebub Says:

    The euros aren’t stupid people. Now that Obama has shown his hand at the casino card table the euro chiefs will call and raise him $200B. And then Bernanke will do a secret deal behind closed doors unbeknownst to the American taxpayer to use our money to bail out the Greeks JUST LIKE THEY MADE SECRET DEALS TO BAIL OUT THE FOREIGN BANKS RIGHT AFTER THE 2008 CRASH – WHICH WAS EXPOSED 3 YEARS AFTER THE FACT.

    We’ve got certified morons running this country who couldn’t give a damn about the common good of the people. IT’S ALL ABOUT THEM!!! :(

  257. Beelzebub Says:

    Man oh man. If I were a german national I would raise my middle finger at Obama and tell him to shove it. It’s the rich germans who are on the hook in the eurozone crisis. Think of the pressure this places on the germans when they sit down with the greek officials to negotiate the greeks failure to abide by the terms of their financial agreement to meet their deficit targets. Now the greeks will use Obama’s request as ammunition putting the germans between a rock and a hard place. If I were german I’d be fricken livid.

  258. spension Says:

    QED, BZ.

  259. Beelzebub Says:

    BS, SP.

  260. Beelzebub Says:

    No doubt Teddy has already shot off an email to the moderator asking for him to ban me for life!!! HAH!

    He’s like a little tattle tale. He reminds me of a red-haired pig tailed girl back in 2nd grade who used to snitch me off for throwing my uneaten liverwurst sandwich in the trash can. HAH!

    You little sissy, Teddy!!! :D

  261. Beelzebub Says:

    Here, you don’t believe me? Read this:

    “The Obama administration will pressure European governments not to let Greece fall out of the eurozone before November’s Presidential elections, British Government sources have suggested”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/obama-asks-eurozone-to-keep-greece-in-until-after-election-day-8076852.html

    WTF? Dumber than a brown bag full of dried dog turds.

    If this guy sneaks in for a 2nd term WE ARE DONE!!!!

  262. spension Says:

    Why not go to an Obama/Romney forum and post your opinions there? Keep your splooge to yourself, BZ. Not that I love Obama or Romney or hate either, it is just not the topic that is appropriate here.

  263. Beelzebub Says:

    Obama has given HUGE bailouts to the public trough feeders – especially to public safety and teachers. So Obama is responsible for perpetuating these massive pensions we see in California. He’s got dirt all over his hands. And those in the know need to spread the message of TRUTH for all to read. You can take it or leave it, spension. But I only speak the TRUTH. Obama is the master of disaster when it comes to giving more horsepower to the public unions and their trough feeders. And everyone needs to know it when they go to the polls on Nov 6. FULL DISCLOSURE. And I am certain that the good people who run CalPensions know it too! Bless their hearts!!! :)

  264. Beelzebub Says:

    Old Teddy is frustrated.

    Teddy can’t play the race card this time – so he will reach into his little doggy bag and pull out the trusty “off topic” card. Hasn’t worked yet, has it Petty Teddy??? HAH!! I know you must be pulling whatever hair you have left from your head about now!!! HAH! You big whining tool!!! HAH! :D

  265. Beelzebub Says:

    hey Teddy…..why don’t you take u-haul and queeq down to the local caberet for some drinks tonight??? I heard Pee-Wee Herman is on stage!!! HAH! Perhaps Pee-Wee will like your sock-puppet gig and take you on tour with him as a side-kick opening act!! HAH! :D

  266. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Wow—- You two have turned this normal persons blog into quite a mess—–Go ahead now and please type about another 20 rants!

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  267. SeeSaw Says:

    I suppose you will be going on the road with Hank Williams, Jr.–huh, Beeze?

  268. Beelzebub Says:

    If Obama showed up at Potdamer Platz in Berlin for another speech I wonder how many Germans would show up today to listen to him – and how many of those who did would have rotten tomatoes and links of moldy sausage in hand to toss at him? Propping up Greece with fiat euros is not in Germany’s best interests. The money changers from the IMF and the ECB will meet in October to decide whether Greece gets another $31B in euros even though they have fallen short on their reform and deficit promises. If I were Wolfgang Schnauble I would tell Obama to shove it up where the sun don’t shine and cut bait on Greece. I would too! No country of mine would be used like an ATM machine by a bunch of parasites who retire @ age 55 and lay around on their backyard hammock sipping on French Chardonnay while the Germans have to work their fingers to the bone until 67!!! F that!! It’s the equivalent of the public workers vs. the private workers in America!!!!

  269. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz drones on into next year…………………………………..

  270. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, just DESTROYING Teddy and the Sock puppets today!!!!!!!!

  271. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    zzzzzzzzzzzz…lol…delusions of adequacy—- the first sign!

  272. Beelzebub Says:

    Just checking to see if my account is still good :)

  273. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, what spins faster= a top or troll teddy???? Teddy is having major meltdowns here ;)

  274. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    You’re always good here Beelz….hey did you see the latest on LAPD?? Their SWAT team members were caught buying special SWAT .45’s for $600 (they get “special” deals) and then reselling them on the open market at $3500! The “best and brightest”….hahahahahahahah :)

  275. Beelzebub Says:

    So what’s the punishment for those GED cops, rex? Paid admin leave? If it were just a few of them I wouldn’t mind. But the large majority of them are dirty and would rob you blind given the chance. They think the badge gives them a license to steal and violate civil rights. Have you ever seen a cop publicly condemn one of his own who was caught dirty? That is the litmus test. You know that Fullerton case where the cops brutally beat and murdered that homeless schizophrenic to death on video? First off, if not for that video tape all those cops would still be working the streets of Fullerton. All the witness accounts would have been ignored. Secondly, the other cops on the force took up a collection to bail the arrested cops out, provided them with 24/7 security protection and the Fullerton police union paid their attorney fees.

    The fact that not one Fullerton cop publicly condemned what those bastards did to that homeless man tells me everything I need to know about cops They are just as dangerous a gang as any street gang you would find in Los Angeles or in Santa Ana.

  276. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    The morons are awake. (see above post)

  277. SeeSaw Says:

    The white coats should be on the way!

  278. Beelzebub Says:

    What’s inaccurate about the comment, Petty Teddy?

    Cops are proven to mimic street gang behavior. Even to the extent of murdering people and trying to cover it up after the fact. Kelly Thomas is a perfect example. And just like gang members, when one of their own commits a heinous act or violates a citizen’s civil rights the entire rank and file circle the wagons for him.

    That’s all true.

    Since Serpico have you see ONE GOOD COP publicly condemn ONE BAD COP??

    Of course not.

    Which makes the so-called GOOD ONES just as filthy rotten as the BAD ONE, doesn’t it???

    Ok, prepared for another clownish one liner without a rational response to my logic…….GO AND GO NOW……..

  279. SeeSaw Says:

    Listen close, Beeze–is that the white-coats pulling up in front of your house, now?

  280. Beelzebub Says:

    Do you have mid-stage dementia or Alzheimers, seesaw?

    Are you unable to grasp rational, logical comments or respond to them in a meaningful way?

  281. SeeSaw Says:

    I am quite lucid. I’m concerned about you. You are descending, and you need to stop. Make appointment with your doctor on Monday.

  282. Beelzebub Says:

    Yo rex, did you happen to read about how the union goons tried to set up Mayor Righeimer of Costa Mesa on a bogus DUI last Wednesday? This crap is straight out of the mafia playbook. Mayor Righeimer is the guy who’s trying to bust the unions in Costa Mesa by outsourcing the city jobs to private companies. After a business meeting he went to a local steakhouse owned by a friend. He had a couple diet cokes before leaving. Some goon who works for a law firm that represents the cops unions (and the Costa Mesa PD union until last Friday) followed him away from the steakhouse and dropped a 911 dime on him accusing him of staggering into his car, swerving all over the road and running stop signs. The Mayor arrived home and the snitch pointed the cop to Righeimer’s front door. The Costa Mesa cop asked Righeimer to step outside for a sobriety test, which he did. The Mayor was stone-cold sober and showed the cop the reciept for the 2 diet cokes that he had. Do you believe this crap, Rex??? Costa Mesa PD says it will investigate!!! HAH! My ass!!! That’s about like Dracula investigating Frankenstein!!! HAH! :D But the OC Register did a good investigative report and identified the goon who dropped a dime on Righeimer by obtaining the 911 recording. He’s a former cop from Riverside who is now a private PI who works for some law firm outfit that is known for using strongarmed union tactics in city/county – union collective bargaining negotiations.

    How much dirtier can they get, rex???

    Here, read this:

    http://www.ocregister.com/news/righeimer-369488-police-city.html

  283. Beelzebub Says:

    Seesaw, when’s the last time you had a PET scan?

    That union health insurance you have should pay for every dime of it.

    It would be worthwhile for you to get on ASAP.

    Don’t be surprised if the doc tells you he can’t find any blood flow to your brain whatsoever.

    I think they have a term for that disease. It’s called “Government Employee Brain Deficit Syndrome” (GEBDS).

    Ask your doctor if he’s ever heard of GEBDS before. If he sees lots of retired government workers in his practice no doubt he is very familiar with it!!! :D

  284. Beelzebub Says:

    Oh, btw, Seesaw.

    I heard that there is no cure for GEBDS. That’s the bad news. But the good news is that the disease normally stikes government workers early in their career and full onset normally occurs before age 30. So the brainless behavior after 30 is considered ‘normal’ for a government employee and friends and relatives wouldn’t notice any further decline after 30.

    So if the doc tells you that you’ve been brainless for probably 40 years don’t take offense. It’s one of the hazards of working in the government!! HAH! :D

  285. SeeSaw Says:

    They’re coming now, Beeze. Just relax after they put on that straight jacket–you don’t want to wear yourself out.

  286. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    beezyboob– if the nurses offer meds— take them.

  287. Beelzebub Says:

    “They’re coming now, Beeze. Just relax after they put on that straight jacket–you don’t want to wear yourself out”

    That’s what the communists used to tell the dissidents who spoke the truth in the old soviet union, seesaw. Their answer was to lock them away with the truth.

    Which substantiates my previous points that you union supporters are really no better than communists who use fascist tactics to achieve your goals.

    Thanks for strengthening my position.

  288. Beelzebub Says:

    Petty Teddy – If you show the doc your postings on-line I bet he would put you on the max doses of combined thorazine and haldol. The same dosages that a veterinarian would prescribe for an elephant for bizarre and erratic behavior at the zoo.

  289. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, you spin Teddy and seesaw like tops !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  290. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Oh, btw, Seesaw.
    I heard that there is no cure for GEBDS. That’s the bad news. But the good news is that the disease normally stikes government workers early in their career and full onset normally occurs before age 30. So the brainless behavior after 30 is considered ‘normal’ for a government employee and friends and relatives wouldn’t notice any further decline after 30.
    So if the doc tells you that you’ve been brainless for probably 40 years don’t take offense. It’s one of the hazards of working in the government!! HAH!

    :)

  291. The Ted System Says:

    LOL dumb and dumber!

    Oh my— ™

  292. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Lets see, Teddy + Uhaul + Queeg= Dumb, Dumber and Dumberer ;)

  293. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Man, that BK Order made my weekend…… No my whole week…no my entire month!!!!!!!!

    Heck it made my entire YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!

  294. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    OMG Beelz, you should see seesaw, aka sawz, melting down over at the Sacbee over this ruling…they have their panties so tight their head is exploding…now they are whining that all the trough feeders need to “call their legislators” and tell them not to let CA mun’si file Bk or they will lose their pensions….hahahhahahahahaha…Oh man, what a bunch of losers!!!

    Read the comments, the trough feeders are blowing gaskets left and right!!!

    http://blogs.sacbee.com/the_state_worker/2012/08/column-extra-judge-says-stockton-bankruptcy-can-break-retiree-health-guaran.html

    It Brings joyful tears to my eyes ;) !

  295. Kidding Me Says:

    I found the reader comments to the sacbee post quite interesting. Without explicitly stating it, several comments were pro creditor stiffing and protection of retiree benefits at any expense.

  296. Beelzebub Says:

    What a courageous ruling by Judge Klein!!!!!

    But he’d better be vigilant. Some of these unions goons may surveil him when he exits a restaurant and drop a bogus 911 DUI call on him like with Councilman Righeimer in Costa Mesa. These dirty union goons play hardball and their don’t play fair either.

    Seesaw, if they screw with your government subsidized health care coverage based on this ruling – contact Kaiser. They offer affordable health insurance and decent care. I heard it’s pretty hard to get a PET scan there unless you’ve fallen on your head. I don’t recommend falling on your head to get one. Maybe if you tell them that you were a career government worker the doc will get a prior authorization for a PET scan to check for GEBDS.

    What did I been telling you and Teddy for years, seesaw???

    IT IS MUCH EASIER TO CHANGE THE LAWS OR EVEN TO CHANGE THE STATE CONSTITUTION THAN IT IS TO PAY PEOPLE WITH MONEY THAT DOES NOT EXIST.

    First they will come after your health care insurance and next your pensions.

    And Los Angeles County is up on deck!!!! :D

  297. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Rex= doing the “Happy Dance” on Teddy and seesaw :)

  298. Kidding Me Says:

    Beelzebub fwiw, I think any cuts to accrued benefits will not be immediate if at all. Before that bridge is crossed, there are 2 more that need to be crossed. Retiree health care(this one should be relatively easy to cross) and unaccrued benefits(harder). This gives the unions plenty of time to come up with further “reform” such as the recent one that grants free life insurance benefits to public safety personnel with a minimum payout of 250K.

  299. Kidding Me Says:

    My understanding is that retiree health benefits are much less protected than unaccrued pension and accrued pension. Vallejo made cuts to retiree health care too so the Stockton decision in that regard is not uncharted waters. What is clearly uncharted waters is what SJ and SD have done and (eventually) the big kahuna battle that will need to be fought at some munis – accrued benefits. In fact, Stockton might get away with stiffing the bond insurers in their entirety but Stockton has admitted the their plan still does not balance out long term. A few years down the line, Stockton will have to cross the 2nd bridge of cuts to future unaccrued benefits and then eventually accrued benefits. All this if Stockton survives in its current governmental form of course. We shall see.

  300. Kidding Me Says:

    I don’t think munis are above issuing IOU’s like the state. Hey this is CA after all, you simply have to imagine crazy things, making them happen is the easier part. When did common sense, logic and a basic smell test ever inhibit legislators?

  301. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    KM, un-accrued benefits are not going to be as hard to cut as accrued benefits, what makes you think that?? And it is ONLY un-accrued pensions that supposedly cannot be changed prospectively under the “CA Rule” which is on very shaky legal ground as it is……And the “california rule” is getting challenged in San Jose right now-that will be the next domino to fall.

  302. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I don’t think munis are above issuing IOU’s like the state

    The states have no legal authority to issue IOU’s without consent of the banks who take them. The banks took CA state IOU’s in the past as a courtesy to the state while budget problems got worked out-but the last time the state floated the idea all the major banks said no, they would no longer IOU’s.

    Dont get a courtesy mixed up with a legal right.

  303. Beelzebub Says:

    These cities are digging their own graves by defaulting on the bonds and screwing the insurers like Assured Garanty LTD. What private firm in it’s right mind is going to insure or issue these bonds in the future with this type of precedent? What goes around comes around. The municipal governments need the backing of these private companies. Screw them at your own peril. Bond insurers are a tight knit group. Screw one and you screw them all. You want to play chicken with these people? HAH! They and their banker friends will squash you like a fricken coachroach. And I don’t give a damn if Assured Garanty LTD is an offshore company in Bermuda. They are all tied into Wall Street in one way or another. And they have LONG LONG memories. Trust me. Don’t be surprised to wake up one morning and find a horse’s head in your bed!!! HAH! :D

  304. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, we’re totally screwed. I can tell right now by the comments left by the trough feeders about the BK Judges decision that they will try to get the laws changed b/c the ruling went against them. If that were to happen the end is here and we just don’t know it. Porky Perez doesn’t give a rats patootie about anyone but himself and his buddies, same with seesaw, she doesn’t care about anyone but herself, same with all the trough feeders.

  305. SeeSaw Says:

    Rex. You didn’t see me crying!. I understood the judge’s decision, and its no shock at all, since Vallejo had already done the health care cuts. The Judge did not have to be courageous–all he had to do was follow the law. The Judge just affirmed that the Chapter 9 clauses leave it up to the bankrupt cities to decide what prioities they will dole out to the creditors. It doesn’t worry me at all–there has been no sign that Stockton plans to stiff the pensioners. So happy-dance all the way to the store, if you want Rex–I’m not in any trouble over any of this, nor am I involved in trying to change the law regarding the ability of public entities to claim bankruptcy.. Any moral support I am able to lend will always go first to the public workers, past, present, and future.

  306. SeeSaw Says:

    I have no worries about the health insurance, Beeze. I already pay most of it myself.

  307. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    The Judge just affirmed that the Chapter 9 clauses leave it up to the bankrupt cities to decide what prioities they will dole out to the creditors.

    That is not what the decision stands for at all, what it stands for is the cuts can be to ANYTHING, that includes VESTED healthcare-as the employees were seeking to block the cutting of healthcare as a “vested” benefit, just as pensions are vested, claiming vested benefits were contracts and the contracts clause prevented them from being cut-the judge said the contracts could be cut b/c the contracts clause applies to the STATES, not the federal government.. The judge said “vested” benefits COULD be cut-and the pensions are next.

    I love how you and your trough feeding buddies just got destroyed by that ruling :)

  308. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    The writing is on the wall…………………………………..

  309. SeeSaw Says:

    This decision was about the health care benefits, and the judge made a decision–it had nothing to do with the pensions. I am not a former employee of Stockton–I have no dog in that fight, except to express my support for the workers, as usual. Sorry, to dissapoint you, Rex–you are in La-La Land.

  310. The Ted System Says:

    LOL— A moron-fest!

    As I have always said– health care benees are dif. because of the way they vest or “contract”.

    There is almost no pension analogy. As I said on the Bee site about the 10th A.–

    Sorry bondholders and other creditors (and companies that insured those bonds), you are on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in loses; Stockton does not have to cut CalPERS payments in order to eligible for bankruptcy protection; and Judge Klein doesn’t have any authority to preclude Stockton from bankruptcy protection unless they try to cut payments to CalPERS.

    The Ted!

    Type now trolls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  311. The Ted System Says:

    Ya think they’ll take up the DC ruling? LOL

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

  312. The Ted System Says:

    and Seesaw– I know you don’t feel bad– I pay 1200 a month for Blue Shield….

  313. Beelzebub Says:

    “and Seesaw– I know you don’t feel bad– I pay 1200 a month for Blue Shield….”

    We thank you for being on the short end of the cost shifting stick so that illegal migrants are able to come to America and obtain free medical care from any American hospital. Your Blue Shield preemiums will only go higher too. Obama thanks you too for being an obedient and compliant stupid American! He prides himself for suckering you to buy his Obamacare bait! ;)

  314. The Ted System Says:

    While I support the Pres 100%—I agree that immigration is THE huge problem– it dwarfs all others.

    The do nothing Repub house is where laws are made—- and no immigration laws are forthcoming……

  315. The Ted System Says:

    CBO—says—–the AHA is deficit cutting—– I agree!

  316. SeeSaw Says:

    Suit yourself Beeze. None of us, Ted, and you, and me, all included, have had participation or choice in the issue of health insurance. If you want to continue beating that anti-immigrant dead horse, go ahead. Where were you and all your buddies, when the blue collar workers went down in the early 80’s because of the immiigration. Did we see you throwing fits anywehere then?

  317. Beelzebub Says:

    “The do nothing Repub house is where laws are made—- and no immigration laws are forthcoming……”

    There ya go, Petty Teddy. Into that deep state of denial again.

    Obama recently imposed an executive order that gave defacto amnesty to MILLIONS of illegal migrants under age 31.

    And your dems in the State legislature are on the verge of passing AB 1081 which will PROHIBIT local authorities from transferrring illegals migrants to the Federal government for deportation UNLESS they’ve committed VIOLENT felonies. Felonies and misdeameanors are fine. They get to stay and the State dems will DEFY the Federal statutes!!! HAH!

    Claiming that the Republicans are the driving force behind providing illegal migrants with more rights than America citizens is just a testament to your deep deep denial. It doesn’t matter if the issue is illegal immigration, police powers, pensions, public employment scams or Obamacare. You are disingenuous and irrational on all subject matter. With you it’s Party over the best interests of America!

    This is exactly how the Nazis thought too, btw.

    Rex and I are open minded and go after all the dirty scams – whether they are generated by dems or repthuglicans.

    We are true Americans!

  318. The Ted System Says:

    it aint all black and white b boob—- the congress has done nothing….lol

  319. Beelzebub Says:

    “it aint all black and white b boob—- the congress has done nothing….lol”

    I fully acknowledge that some powerful republicans have been accomplices in allowing illegal foreigners to invade our nation to take our jobs and steal our resources. But the DEMS, without a fricken doubt, have been the true driving force.

    If not for the republican congress, Bush2 would have snuck his icomprehensive immigration reform (defacto amnesty) past the American people.

    The REPUBLICANS have been responsible for the pushback against giving illegals more and more rights – whether in Congress or in the State legislature. To deny that is a lie.

    So yes it is all black and white.

  320. Beelzebub Says:

    “Where were you and all your buddies, when the blue collar workers went down in the early 80′s because of the immiigration”

    I’ve always complained about the lack of immigration enforcement. Always. I have written, called and spoke personally to my representatives about it. Now I realize that they really don’t give a damn what we think or want. They just do what their owners tell them to do….the people be damned. Whether it comes to immigration, public unions or Wall Street. It matters not what the large majority want. It’s the bribes that make the wheels turn round and round. You folks are bribe enablers. Just admit it. You like a system that is predicated on bribes. You eat that crap up.

  321. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    This decision was about the health care benefits, and the judge made a decision–it had nothing to do with the pensions

    LOL…seesaw, you’re dumber than a bag of rocks!!!! The exact same argument will be used to break the “vested” pension contracts dumb-dumb ;)

    As I have always said– health care benees are dif. because of the way they vest or “contract”.
    Hahahahaha….Teddy the Dunce, also dumber than a bag of rocks :)

    Stockton does not have to cut CalPERS payments in order to eligible for bankruptcy protection;
    Actually they do dumb-dumb, read the ruling EInstein, the same argument will be used to cut pensions with everything else..Happy Dance..Happy Dance :)

    While I support the Pres 100%—I agree that immigration is THE huge problem– it dwarfs all others.
    LOL..Teddy deflecting…. a SURE SIGN of “Oh My Gawd, my pension is taking a haricut soon”..hahhahahaahahah…Oh Teddy, maybe you can use your sock puppets to supportr you after the cuts :)

    CBO—says—–the AHA is deficit cutting—– I agree!

    The CBO said Teddy bot SPANKED-I agree ;)

    “Where were you and all your buddies, when the blue collar workers went down in the early 80′s because of the immiigration”

    My buddies-unlike YOU – were out trying to stop the scam, same with the current H-1B visa scam, WHERE WERE YOU TROUGHIE?

  322. Beelzebub Says:

    The dem pols arrange for the offshoring of our damn jobs and also bring in tons of foreigners to work domestic jobs at a much lower wage than what normal citizens can afford. It’s a double whammy. We’re screwed either way we turn. It’s the dismantling of the middle class. And now the middle class is extorted to purchase a health care policy from Wall Street and if we don’t the long arm of the IRS comes after us for a HUGE tax. Jesus Christ. And on top of that we must continue to pay our taxes to ensure illegal migrants can get free healthcare (with no restrictions) from our American hospitals! Frack me!!!

  323. The Ted System Says:

    Poodle Rexy-

    We have seen things go bk before..why re you so excited?

    I have a tiny 10 year pension….no worries here little buddy.

    Are you predicting more bk issues where pensions are cut?

    How many where pensions are cut?

    50?

    LOL

    The you be…maybe….5 for 60 !! LOL

    You may want someone to read some of the bk cases to you little friend….

    Keep the loser predictions going troll! I love it!!!!!!

  324. The Ted System Says:

    Republicans in Congress are fond of complaining that this country’s immigration system is broken. They’re less interested in working with Democrats to fix it.

    No one disagrees that America’s immigration system needs repair.

    But every time Democrats offer to work together on comprehensive immigration reform, Republicans find an excuse to fight sensible change.

    And every time Democrats propose bipartisan legislation to provide a pathway to citizenship for children brought here illegally through no fault of their own, Republicans find an excuse to oppose our practical reforms.

    There is no better illustration of Republicans’ hypocrisy than their phony outrage over the weekend.

    On Friday, President Obama announced the Administration would suspend deportation of upstanding young people brought here illegally as children – provided they attend college or serve in the military.

    More than 800,000 young people who have done well in school and stayed out of trouble will benefit from this policy – and hopefully go on to be productive members of society.

    In the past, Republicans have expressed broad support for the principles of President Obama’s directive.

    And Senator Marco Rubio, the Junior Senator from Florida, has even talked up a similar idea to the press for months, although he never actually produced a proposal.

    Yet Republicans’ glowing expressions of support for the President’s decision were not forthcoming. Instead, Republicans have cried about the way the directive was issued.

    They prefer a long-term solution. They don’t like the timing. They should have been consulted, and an issue this important should have been left to Congress.

    The complaints are varied, but they have one thing in common: none of them actually take issue with the substance of President Obama’s directive.

    Leading Republican voices on immigration have yet to actually disagree with the decision.

    They just don’t like the way President Obama made the decision – or that he will get the credit for bringing out of the shadows 800,000 trustworthy young men and women who know no other home but the United States.

    But Republicans are right about one thing. President Obama’s directive is not a permanent solution – it’s a temporary fix.

    So I remind my colleagues in both Houses of Congress – the next move is ours.

    The ball is soooo in the republiteabaggers court– they just obstruct though and won’t work with the dems—- the joke will continue no matter who is elected… it aint so black and white now is it B Boob?

  325. The Ted System Says:

    obviously B Boob you can have someone read the above repub cut n paste to you….. if you have problems I will explain it to you midget.

    oh my.

  326. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy=melting down over the truth!

    Wake up sleepy troll this is the begining of the end ;)

  327. The Ted System Says:

    lol——– the skyyyyyyyy is faaaaaaaaaaaaalling!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  328. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    The sky just fell, on the trough feeders, why do you think they are whining like 3 y/o’s fool???????????????

  329. spension Says:

    There are millions of people in countries throughout the world who applied dutifully and honestly for immigration to the US… and were denied. Some of them faced really repressive regimes in their home countries.

    What do we tell them if we allow people, even really good stellar people, who circumvented the immigration process, to get residency or citizenship?

    I am certain that excellent young people, brought here as children by undocumented parents, are caught in a terrible bind. But so were women in China who faced forced abortion and applied for immigration to the US, but got turned down.

    The children of undocumented really should turn first to their parents… it was their parents who made the mistake an cut in the immigration line. It is up to their parents to right the wrong they committed. Or course a lot of voters who feel close to the undocumented want to help them, because those undocumented parents are in close proximity, good friends, maybe great people.

    But right is right and wrong is wrong. I can feel sympathy for the undocumented while still disagreeing with easy citizenship for them or, very sadly, for their guiltless children.

    Back to pensions: good article to read on DC plans in the New York Times:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/business/401-k-woes-when-a-company-goes-bankrupt-fair-game.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&src=rechp

    To summarize: Penn Specialty Chemicals sold its asset to a French Company in July 2008… most employee 401(k)’s were at Vanguard, but the responsible parties in the company have not allowed 401(k) account holders to either retire or take any distributions from the Vanguard account. Meanwhile the Penn Specialty authorities have been charging 2.4% fees/year and deducting them from the 401(k) account holders’ money… Vanguard says they are bound by law to deduct the fees and give them back to the company.

    Shankar Iyer, a 71-year old employee who wants to retire, can’t because he can’t get access to his money, and is watching his retirement fund leak away in fees. He faces IRS penalties because he is unable to make legally required minimum distributions, mandatory because he is over 70 1/2, and the 401(k) is in the name of a previous employer. But the responsible parties won’t let him make distributions and are draining his account slowly.

    87% of US companies with DC plans have fewer than 100 employees, and can control employees accounts in this manner; and also charge fees that Vanguard must reimburse.

    Shankar Iyer is quoted:

    “I tell everyone I know, ‘Do not trust this 401(k) at all,’ ” he said.

    As far as I know: if California Public Pensions went DC, nothing would stop the State of California from, in a budget crisis, dipping into employee 403(b) or 457(b) assets in just the same manner.

  330. Kidding Me Says:

    Judge Klein’s ruling around health care for retirees is indeed very narrow. While his ruling can be taken to mean anything, at this time not enough is known to say with certainty which way the story will turn. I believe the next procedural development in the Stockton case is scheduled for December.

    Both parties are responsible for the immigration mess we are in. Repubs under pressure from their masters have supported replacements for white collar labor whereas both parties but especially Dems have caved in to Hispanic pressure to allow all kinds of Hispanic immigration whether legal or illegal.

    On a related note, blind opposition to immigration including legal will not help us. Foreigners have succeeded in this country due to a multi decade trend of reducing American participation in certain professions – basic sciences, engineering, university professors, fruit picking, etc. Immigration also helps float the retirement boat – a certain ratio of employed workers to retirees is needed to help make the tsunami of entitlement benefits that are due in the coming decades. Immigration has helped plug the gap because the USA just like almost every other rich Western economy is aging and without net immigration we would be in a much tighter spot. We need to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration and realize that xenophobia is this day and age won’t help.

    On a separate note, I wish everybody on this forum well in achieving whatever it is that they wish to achieve whether it is genuine debate, understanding another point of view, etc. The passion on this forum is great but there is just way too much negative energy(mea culpa admission here, I have done my bit to contribute to this issue) here in my view.

    Signing off, good luck and good bye.

  331. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    87% of US companies with DC plans have fewer than 100 employees

    99.999999999999999999999999999999% of all US compaines have less than 100 emoployees fool.

  332. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    . The passion on this forum is great but there is just way too much negative energy….

    Teddy is still wrecking the forum for all of us ;)

  333. The Ted System Says:

    kidding– you are correct

    maybe the 2 clowns out here beezy and rexy could stop calling people names?
    trough feeder
    stupid
    etc etc etc
    but
    I
    doubt it!
    Beezy was booted from another site for race and hate speech.
    it just rolls on and to be honest is VERY prevalent among the uneducated teabag party class. Sorry but everyone sees it. This is just where the level of discourse has settled to on this blog. Childlike.

    Ted

  334. SeeSaw Says:

    Where was I Beeze? I sure wasn’t giving jobs to illegals. Most of your ilk, who complain about the immirgration problem on a daily basis, need to look in the mirror and admit they are looking directly at one of the many culprits–they have been blaming the wrong group for 26 years!

  335. The Ted System Says:

    well….that is a good point Seesaw– the Mexican workers wouldn’t come here if the “job creators” ™ didn’t hire them in violation of law.

  336. Beelzebub Says:

    “But every time Democrats offer to work together on comprehensive immigration reform, Republicans find an excuse to fight sensible change”

    You’re full of it, Teddy!

    Comprehensive Immigration Reform is a code phrase for AMNESTY and everybody and his brother knows it.

    America has ALWAYS been a nation that stood for ORDERLY AND LAWFUL immigration. Not uncontrolled immigration that lets indigents pour across the border and steal us blind of our resources that are meant for AMERICAN CITIZENS!!!

    There is NO OTHER CIVILIZED nation in the world that allows for uncontrolled immigration. NONE! All other nations realize that uncontrolled immigration DESTROYS THE HOST. That’s why they don’t do it. If there was an advantage to it EVERY NATION ON THE PLANET WOULD PARTICIPATE!!!

    There are MILLIONS of law-abiding prospective immigrants who wait in line to come here. They play by the damned rules. They take their tests. They learn the language. They pay their fees. And when they work they pay taxes. These indigent leeches that pour across our borders do NONE of the above!!! All they bring are their dieseases, their good appetites and their hand out for freebies. Enough of that crap. We need LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Not illegal parasites!! And with about an 11% U/E rate in California we don’t even need legal immigrants right now. All available jobs should go to US citizens!!

    “More than 800,000 young people who have done well in school and stayed out of trouble will benefit from this policy – and hopefully go on to be productive members of society”

    If my dad committed a bank robbery and got caught when I was a kid I would suffer for it. I would lose a breadwinner. Is that fair? Hell no it’s not fair. But it’s life. If your parents brought you to America illegally take it up with them. Have they solve your damned problem. But don’t make YOUR problem MY problem and tell me that not only must I give you a seat in our university system (and take away a seat from an American kid) but that I must pay for it too! F that!!!

    If it wasn’t for the republican pushback Bush2 would have approved Comprehensive Immigration Reform during his final term. Sure, there are some BIG ASS republican traitors like Bush2 and John McCain. I don’t contest that. But the MAJORITY of the republicans are still against AMNESTY and providing more rights for illegal migrants. It’s the DEMS that would pass full blown amnesty next week if we allowed them. So don’t BS me, Teddy. I didn’t fall off the turnip wagon yesterday, buddy!

    “But Republicans are right about one thing. President Obama’s directive is not a permanent solution – it’s a temporary fix”

    Obama’s exec order opened up Pandora’s Box. These indigents now will be able to bring get their illegal family members green cards and saturate our neighborhoods even more than they are today with blight and poverty. Some idiot making $8/hr can’t live in California without public assistance.

    We already have 33% of the nation’s welfare recipients with only 12% of the nation’s population. Do you want to increase that 33% to 50%!! That’s exactly what you’re doing, you full-blown certified idiot!!!

    You liberal ideologues make me vomit in my mouth!!! :(

  337. spension Says:

    Rex said: 87% of US companies with DC plans have fewer than 100 employees

    99.999999999999999999999999999999% of all US compaines have less than 100 emoployees fool.

    According to the US Census, http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html, as of 2008, 6,054,454 out of 7,601,169, or 79.7% of US establishments that are employers have fewer than 100 employees.

    Rex, can you supply a reference for your figure of 99.999999999999999999999999999999% ?

  338. spension Says:

    The biggest amnesty in US history for undocumented was signed into law by Ronald Reagan.

  339. spension Says:

    Libya has lots of uncontrolled immigration from subsaharan africa. About 15% of Libya’s population is undocumented, compared to 4% for the US.

  340. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    The Ted Sockpuppets Say: kidding– you are correct
    maybe the 2 clowns out here beezy and rexy could stop calling people names?

    Ohhhh… the irony!
    :) !

  341. Beelzebub Says:

    “On a related note, blind opposition to immigration including legal will not help us”

    KM, catch up with the discussion. We’re discussing ILLEGAL immigration here and turning ILLEGALS into LEGALS with an exec order when the majority of American citizens disapprove!!! We are talking about indigent illegals stealing jobs and resources from US Citizens for Christ sakes!! What the hell is wrong with you people? Have you all lost your minds?

    “We need to distinguish between legal and illegal immigration and realize that xenophobia is this day and age won’t help”

    KM, there are MILLIONS of foriegners waiting their turn to come to America. When the time is right and when the economy in back to health – I have no problem with bringing some over WHEN WE HAVE THE AVAILABLE JOBS. Today we don’t have the jobs. But the friken illegals should get DEPORTED NOW!!! They bring wages down for the middle class. Look what they did to the construction industy for God sakes! The janitorial industry! The factory jobs! The landscaping industry! The fast food industry! Etc…. All middle class jobs STOLEN from American citizens!!! Look at the crime in cities infested with illegals (Los Angeles, Santa Ana, etc…) Look at the blight they’ve created! Look at th diesease we eradicated DECADES AGO that is on the comeback!!! Nearly 50% of residents COLLECT SOME TYPE OF WELFARE PAYMENT IN AMERICAN TODAY, KM!!! THE LAST DAMN THING WE NEED ARE MORE INDIGENTS!!!

    So don’t pull that ‘xenophobia’ BS on me. The world is made up of SOVEREIGN NATIONS. That’s the nature of life. We divide and build our own nests – just like the animals do. You don’t see the Sparrows invade the Blue Jay’s nests and leech off them, do ya? Of course not. Humans are NO DIFFERENT. I am not responsible for Mexico’s problems. I refuse to bail them out. I refuse to take care of their indignents. MEXICO NEEDS TO SOLVE IT’S OWN DAMN PROBLEMS AND STOP TOSSING THEIR REFUGE INTO OUR BACK YARD!!! :(

  342. Beelzebub Says:

    “The biggest amnesty in US history for undocumented was signed into law by Ronald Reagan”

    And Reagan was an idiot for doing so. He was owned just like all the rest of these pol slime.

    But the fact remains that the dems are the driving force behind amnesty, not the republicans.

    And I am NOT a member of either party. I can’t stand either of ‘em. But the truth is the truth. The dems are BY FAR the strongest force in favor of saturating the nation with indigent illegals. And it’s been the republicans who have defeated Comprehensive Immigration Reform (aka AMNESTY) so far.

  343. The Ted System Says:

    B Boob—- I never read you long rants of course but I DID notice that you said “you threw up in your mouth”?

    Nice.

  344. Beelzebub Says:

    “well….that is a good point Seesaw– the Mexican workers wouldn’t come here if the “job creators” ™ didn’t hire them in violation of law”

    If the gov enforced the damn law and/or implemented mandatory E-Verify with enforcement follow-up the problem would be solved. But when employers are allowed by the gov to hire CHEAP labor and drive down the average wage – the employers are going to take advantage of it.

    If bank robbery laws were not enforced 50 banks a day in Orange County would get knocked off.

    You don’t need to be a genius to determine where they problem lies, dummy!!! :D

  345. spension Says:

    Many conservative republicans in California red counties are strong advocates of illegal immigration… how else would the crop get picked or the work get done… I live in such a place. Lots of conservatives in Alabama got quite upset when undocumented were suppressed there. The tolerance of illegals in the US is a bipartisan project. The only difference is the Democrats want a path to citizenship, and the Republicans don’t.

  346. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    According to the US Census, http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html, as of 2008, 6,054,454 out of 7,601,169, or 79.7% of US establishments that are employers have fewer than 100 employees.

    Spanking spencion with his OWN numbers, like taking candy from a baby!

    Total businesses= 27,281,452
    Total businesses with 100 or more employees= 128,076
    % of businesses with 100 or fewer employees= 99.52%
    % of businesses with 500 or more employees= 0.0048%

    BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Schools in fool!

  347. spension Says:

    Deafening silence on the abuses in the DC system exploited by Penn Specialty. I guess everyone is OK with companies skimming 2.4% out of their employee’s 401(k) contributions. Nice, really nice.

  348. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Back to CWD, I have some sock puppets to spank ;)

  349. Beelzebub Says:

    “Libya has lots of uncontrolled immigration from subsaharan africa. About 15% of Libya’s population is undocumented, compared to 4% for the US”

    Libya?? HAH! What a dumb ass example!

    Does Libya provide free food, free medical and free education to illegal indigents??? HAH! In Libya if an illegal can’t feed himself he starves! If he get syphiliss he dies.

    Libya has always been a totalitarian fascist nation.

    Show me a 1st world developed nation that allows indigent foreigners into their society en mass and provides them with free education, food and medical care. Show me one. You can’t.

    No other nation is that fing stupid.

  350. spension Says:

    BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Schools in fool!

    Mayo-brain, you included firms that have no employees at all, including mostly defunct companies that exist only on paper. Get that swizzle-stick that has pithed your brain out of your mouth or exhaust port or wherever you put it.

    Even within your johnson-creamed delusion, you still missed the fact that 99.52 does not equal 99.999999999999999999999999999999 , 8-year-old ogler.

  351. spension Says:

    BZ, you always change your goalposts. Your original claim was:

    “There is NO OTHER CIVILIZED nation in the world that allows for uncontrolled immigration. NONE!”

    No conditions on healthcare, etc. Libya certainly is a civilized nation. But no, I don’t want the US to become like Libya, as I made clear earlier.

    You need to examine your own ridiculous BS, rather than lashing out at the facts that consistently disprove your exaggerations.

  352. spension Says:

    Libya’s healthcare system ain’t bad, at least until their revolution:

    http://i-cias.com/e.o/libya.health.htm

  353. Beelzebub Says:

    “Many conservative republicans in California red counties are strong advocates of illegal immigration… how else would the crop get picked or the work get done…”

    First of all it’s so stupid to focus on the republicans as the driving force for illegal immigration. You have lost all credibility. It was the republicans who stopped Comprehensive Immigration Reform (aka Amnesty).

    Secondly, there are programs that bring in seasonal foreign agricultural workers. All grape pickers should be legal immigrants with temp working permits. There is NO REASON to hire an illegal other than to circumvent the law and drive down wages. You know better than that.

    “The only difference is the Democrats want a path to citizenship, and the Republicans don’t”

    The only difference is the Democrats want AMNESTY and the Republicans don’t.

    There, fixed it for ya. :D

  354. Beelzebub Says:

    “Libya’s healthcare system ain’t bad, at least until their revolution”

    Libya was a fascist totalitarian regime and not even close to being a 1st world nation.

    Stop the spin, pal.

    Again, show me a 1st world nation that tolerates illegal immigration.

    You can’t.

    I rest my case. Stop the spin.

  355. spension Says:

    Horse-pies. Stopping reform doesn’t stop illegal immigration. The republicans in my part of California love the illegal immigration, they just don’t want reform.

    It was Ronald Reagan who favored amnesty and signed it into law in the 1980’s. Can’t say Obama has favored that, at least yet.

    And not a few big farm owners and ranchers in my neck of the woods help the illegals they like get legal. They are not heartless.

    If you think you have any clue as to what credibility even means, you should wack yourself over the head. Maybe a concussion will help you see reality.

  356. Beelzebub Says:

    “B Boob—- I never read you long rants of course but I DID notice that you said “you threw up in your mouth”?”

    You fabricator. You read my rants. Every last word. You don’t comment because you know I’m right and you’re wrong. You know that I threw you to the debate mat for the 3 count. You cried ‘uncle’ and had no response. heh. You don’t fool me,

  357. spension Says:

    You don’t have to be 1st world to be civilized.

    You didn’t mention anything about 1st world in your original post.

    Back up and acknowledge your BS, lowbrow.

  358. spension Says:

    Deafening silence on the abuses in the DC system exploited by Penn Specialty. I guess everyone is OK with companies skimming 2.4% out of their employee’s 401(k) contributions. Nice, really nice.

  359. Beelzebub Says:

    “And not a few big farm owners and ranchers in my neck of the woods help the illegals they like get legal. They are not heartless”

    You dumb ass.

    If it were up to the dems America and Mexico would officially merge tomorrow and the American taxpayer would be responsible for all their sovereign debt.

    Everybody knows that.

    Making illegal immigration sound like a Republican based problem makes you look like a total imbecile.

  360. Beelzebub Says:

    “You don’t have to be 1st world to be civilized.

    You didn’t mention anything about 1st world in your original post”

    Yeah, Libya was civilized. HAH! It was a dicatorship and a totalitarian fascist society. Nobody wanted to live there. The only way they could attract residents was allowing illegals to saturate their cities. Would you want to live under Ghadafi’s rule, you dork?? HAH!

    If you are going to compare America to Libya you might as well compare us to Uganda.

    You can’t show me one other DEVELOPED 1ST WORLD NATION that ignores it’s immigration enforcement laws and provides illegals with free education, healthcare and food WHILE THEY ARE RUNNING A $16T deficit, can you dorkus!!!

    HAH!

    You sound more like a damn bleeding heart every day.

    Why don’t you invite a couple illegal families to live with you and pay for their education, health care and food???

    Put that shoe on the other foot and see how it feels!! HAH! :D

  361. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, I remember back in the late 1980’s one of my old roommates said that all the illegals do Si want a better life for themselves and their families-and that is true- the problem was they were wiping out the labor market for legit American workers, and she could not figure that out because as a waitress she didn’t compete with illegals……..they all think it is OK as long as it is NOT THEIR JOB that is getting destroyed by illegals who either take the American jobs or drive wages down to poverty levels. The same with the trough feeders, they love new taxes because for every nickel they pay they get back $1.

  362. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Mayo-brain, you included firms that have no employees at all, including mostly defunct companies that exist only on paper. Get that swizzle-stick that has pithed your brain out of your mouth or exhaust port or wherever you put it.

    LOL..now the egg head wants to limit one person businesses after I knocke dhim back into the stone ages, what a fool you are spension. Spanked you so hard my hand STILL hurts from your smack down.

    Want some more smack down fool, you know where to find it ;)

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