Legal pension hikes: air time, golden handshake

If the Legislature attempts pension reform this month, one of the targets may be “air time,” a decade-old policy that allows CalPERS and CalSTRS members to boost their pensions by buying up to five years of additional service credit.

Another older but also colorfully named policy, the “golden handshake,” allows management to encourage early retirement by boosting pensions with two years of additional service credit.

Some regard air time as an abuse, even though employees make a payment that is supposed to cover the cost. There is the question of fairness, a benefit not available to all citizens, and of taxpayer risk if long-term investment earnings are below the forecast.

The golden handshake, with employers presumably paying the cost, has the same investment risk and often is offered only to higher-paid employees. The CalPERS version also gets competition from a private firm, Public Agency Retirement Services.

Air time and the golden handshake were linked in a bill veto message in 2003 by former Gov. Gray Davis, who signed a major state worker pension increase, SB 400 in 1999, criticized for triggering unsustainable pension increases throughout the state.

Davis vetoed a labor-backed bill, AB 457, that expanded the golden handshake beyond management, added two years of retirement age to the two years service credit, eased the payment schedule and softened cost-saving job vacancy requirements.

The goal of the bill was to make the golden handshake, which had few takers the previous year, attractive enough to avoid a budgeted $470 million cut in state worker pay by allowing the gap to be closed on paper, even if the savings were likely to fall short.

The veto message said the bill could result in employers paying to hasten retirements that would have happened without the incentive or delay the retirement of employees who wait for a golden handshake.

“At any rate, I have already signed AB 719 and AB 55 this year, which would allow state and local government employees to purchase up to five years of service to enhance retirement benefits,” Davis said in the message. “These benefits will encourage early retirement at no cost to the public employer.”

The two bills in 2003 authorized air time for the California Public Employees Retirement System and the 20 county systems operating under a 1937 act. Davis vetoed a county air time bill the previous year because an amendment added legislative employees.

“This bill confers a special benefit on legislative employees not available generally to all state employees,” Davis said in his veto message of AB 2004 in 2002.

Air time is said to have its roots in the federal Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, which allowed savings in tax-deferred retirement plans such as the 401(k) to be used to purchase service credits in public pensions.

At the California State Teachers Retirement System, legislation in 1997 allowing the purchase of service credits for years in an out-of-state public school was expanded by SB 2126 in 1998 to allow air time purchases.

Service credit in CalPERS can be purchased for military service and leaves of absence — about 52 different things, said a memo to the board this week on members being advised to use an on-line cost estimator before asking staff for a cost estimate.

The federal tax law allows the purchase of up to five years of credit for “non-qualified” service. A legislative bill analysis said this became known as “air time” because it does not correspond to any service actually performed.

CalPERS calls air time “Additional Retirement Service Credit.” CalSTRS calls air time “Nonqualified service credit.”

Air time is expensive (CalPERS raised the rates last year) and not widely purchased. In a system with 1.1 million active and inactive members, 47,000 had purchased air time by last September, CalPERS told the Los Angeles Times in February.

Since then, there have been 8,000 requests for estimates of the cost of purchasing various types of service credit, CalPERS said last week. How many were for air time was unavailable, but recently about 44 percent of requests have resulted in purchases.

Among the roughly 430,000 active CalSTRS members, a spokeswoman said, 859 purchased $46.6 million worth of air time in fiscal 2010-11, up from 709 and $38.4 million in 2009-10 and 748 and $39.3 million in 2008-09.

Air time purchases yield a lifetime monthly retirement payment, with no risk of investment losses, based on a pension fund earnings forecast, now 7.5 percent, said by critics to be overly optimistic in this era.

“It’s a tremendous investment,” said Dan Pellissier, president of California Pension Reform, a former gubernatorial and legislative aide who purchased air time. “I think all of the investment advisers say it’s a no-brainer.”

The golden handshake that adds two years of service credit was received by 211 CalSTRS members retiring in fiscal 2010-11, a year when 13,896 members retired. CalPERS had no specific information on golden handshakes.

A report last August said among the 3,033 local governments in CalPERS there were 10 golden handshake contract amendments in fiscal 2005-06. The number jumped to 35 in fiscal 2008-09, 43 in 2009-10 and dropped to 22 in fiscal 2010-11.

In the San Bernardino bankruptcy, a staff report last month outlined the CalPERS golden handshake as a way to cut costs, if vacancies created by early retirement are left open or filled by employees with lower pay and benefits.

The report also made a pitch (page 25) for a golden handshake plan provided by Public Agency Retirement Services, which the city used in the past for public safety early retirements.

“The PARS early retirement program goes far beyond the limitations of the PERS option and it is far more flexible,” said the San Bernardino report, calling PARS the “third largest multiple employer public retirement system in California.”

The firm in Newport Beach offers a retiree health care prefunding program like CalPERS, alternatives to Social Security for part-time and temporary workers, defined benefit pensions and 401(k)-style defined contribution plans.

“Since 1984, the PARS team has designed and delivered over 1,100 individually customized solutions that have cumulatively saved over 600 public agency clients hundreds of millions of dollars,” said the firm’s website.

As the Legislature began its summer recess early last month, air time was one of the issues mentioned in a Sacramento Bee story about pension reform talks between Democratic legislators and Gov. Brown.

When the Legislature returned last week for the final month of the session, the Bee said Senate President Pro Tempore Darrell Steinberg, D-Sacramento, gave this reply when asked what pension issues still need to be hammered out:

“Same issues really, the kind of cap, whether or not you have a hybrid, the extent to which all of these changes apply to local governments, what parts and what is left to collective bargaining at the local level. Pre-emption is not an issue.”

Reporter Ed Mendel covered the Capitol in Sacramento for nearly three decades, most recently for the San Diego Union-Tribune. More stories are at http://calpensions.com/ Posted 13 Aug 12

279 Responses to “Legal pension hikes: air time, golden handshake”

  1. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    “At any rate, I have already signed AB 719 and AB 55 this year, which would allow state and local government employees to purchase up to five years of service to enhance retirement benefits,” Davis said in the message. “These benefits will encourage early retirement at no cost to the public employer.”

    Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t CalTURDS say the exact same thing about SB400-that “…it will be no cost to the public employer.”

    How did SB400 work out???? Did that end up costing the “public employer” aka the taxpayers, anything???

    Beelz, was Davis or CalTURDS right???????

  2. Tough Love Says:

    The appropriate basis for deciding whether a benefit provision should be included in a Public Sector Plan is … DO Private Sector Plans include it ?

    If not, neither should Public Sector Plans, with all but 10-20% of total Plan costs (including all the investment earnings on those 10-20% contributions) paid for NOT by the workers, but by Taxpayer contributions and the investment earnings thereon.

    As to airtime being “cost neutral”, BALONEY. Any annuity-writer would require at least double the premium to guarantee the purchased incremental benefit.

  3. eatingdogfood Says:

    Time for the Democrats to make Public Service Unions Illegal !!! Who loves ya, Baby !!!

  4. Beelzebub Says:

    “Beelz, was Davis or CalTURDS right???????”

    Air Time/Golden Handshake = Government Bureaucrat Scams to Steal from the Taxpayers!

    These thieves get paid by the unions to meet behind closed doors and dream up new retirement add-on’s for the trough feeders to bilk the taxpayers.

    One they didn’t mention was DROP (Deferred Retirement Option Plan) where public safety can retire – collect their pensions – continue working at full salary while still contributing to their pensions – and collect a huge lump sum payment at the end of their work extension (usually 5 years).

    Huge scams that add more and more pounds of pressure to the pension pressure cooker until it finally blows sky high.

    The general public is not sophisicated enough to smell the stink of these devious scams so it fly under the radar until the damage is so great that it destroys the solvency of the system and requires massive tax increases to keep the boat afloat.

    The tax increases MUST be voted down in November.

    If the voters increase the taxes they are pounding in the final nails to their proverbial coffins.

    Let’s hope they don’t buy the propoganda!!!

  5. spension Says:

    I have no problem at all with air time… it is the numbers that matter, not all the bluster. If you are 2.5%/year, a year of air time should cost you 63% of your full annual salary, out of your pocket. If you are 3%/year, 75% of your full annual salary.

  6. Beelzebub Says:

    And if the markets continue to return 1% annually who gets caught holding empty bag??? That’s right. John and Jane TAXPAYER!!! That’s who!!!

    I am tired of these bastards GAMBLING with MY MONEY!!!

    If they want to gamble GO TO VEGAS AND USE THEIR OWN DAMN MONEY!!!

    GET YOUR FILTHY HANDS OFF THE PUBLIC TREASURE TO WAGER YOUR BETS WITH!!! :(

  7. Drewsky Says:

    Something that all of the tossers here today conveniently ignore is that the airtime and the 2%@55 retirement formulas (subsequently returned to the former 2%@60) were the result of a Administration/ Management blunder in 1999. The unions were asking for raises during that time of economic prosperity and the Davis Administration was too cheap to grant them. (Mind you, these were nothing extravagant; around 5%) Instead, they offered these pension concessions that at the time seemed harmless. The two parties went back and forth for months, with the unions making it clear that all they really needed were some pay raises. Finally, the unions agreed to the pension measures, since ‘Mr. chicken-sandwich-for-lunch-every- day’ still acted like a pay raise during a period of inflation and out-of-control real estate prices was unaffordable. I basically support Browns’ pension reform ideas, but I’m fed up reading ignorant comments by people who just want to bash unions. If the whole thing is really that upsetting, it tells me that they should have planned their own careers & retirements a whole lot better.

  8. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Wow Drewsky- I have not seen so many public trough feeder “talking points” in the last 2 years!

    #1-The unions were getting HUGE raises in the 1990’s and the 2000”s, they did not have stagnant wages as you and your trough feeder buddies liek to claim, in fact Davis gave prison guards a 37% pay RAISE over just 4 short years in 1999, so your claim you were not given 5% increases in salary is correct, it was closer to 10%-sort of shoots down your phone claim that the pension gifts were because the wages were not going up. The private sector on the other hand has seen their wages go DOWN since 2000-so your entire argument if a whopper lie.

    #2- Pension concessions that seemed harmless?? To who, the trough feeders who saw 50% HIKES, for pensions they never worked for nor earned?????

    #3- the ones who should have planned better were people like you Drew, your fraud and attempted heist of the state treasury is now blowing up in your face, don’t blame honest tax payers for your fraud.

    #3

    #45

  9. spension Says:

    What if aliens come and use their laser blasters to melt all the freeways in California. What if ebola mutates and kills 2/3 of the US population. What if BZ and Rex learn the difference between a DB and DC retirement. Lots of amazing possibilities to fret over.

    I think it would be fine to buy a year of `airtime’ for 62.5% of your final year salary if your pension rate is 2.5%/year, 75% of your final year salary if your pension rate is 3%/year.

    Odd that I haven’t seen anyone post the cost of the airtime… this whole discussion could be 3 sentences long, except, self-pleasure is the point of most people on this board.

  10. SeeSaw Says:

    Spension, air-time for non-managment employees runs about $14,000/yr and for some management employees, it costs about $25,000/yr. CalPERS does have a chart, which I haven’t seen lately–the prices I quote were from my former workplace. Airtime doesn’t make much sense to me, when one considers the number of years they must be retired before they get any return. It is just a throw of the dice, anyway.

    Beeze, you are just generalizing when it comes to wage increases in the public sector. During the 90’s, COLAs at my former place of work ranged from one to two-percent. We got an across-the-board five-percent increase in 2006, which was not the norm. In recent years, there have been no COLAs and, since the abolishment of Redevelopment, workers are being laid off.

    Save your breath about my anecdotes, Beeze. I tell true happenings–not angry rantings like you.

  11. spension Says:

    Seesaw… if those numbers cover a prison dentist making $200,000/year in pension, they are absurdly low. If they cover a custodian making $40,000/year they are…. still seriously low.

    That might be the real issue. Selling airtime at a fraction of the true cost would be a serious lapse.

  12. Beelzebub Says:

    “If the whole thing is really that upsetting, it tells me that they should have planned their own careers & retirements a whole lot better”

    You fing dork. That’s the same as saying I should have tried my hand at robbing banks or mugging people in back alleys instead of being envious with the people who made money at it. Your public unions are crooked to the bone. For you to defend them tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about you.

  13. Beelzebub Says:

    “That might be the real issue. Selling airtime at a fraction of the true cost would be a serious lapse”

    Oh, you’re finally waking up out of your slumber, eh spension?

    If these scoundrels want to gamble with their own money in Vegas or Moranga – be my guest. But don’t you gamble with MY money. Got it? That’s why 401-K equivalents are so great. There’s NO gambling involved EXCEPT by the account holder. You know exactly how much YOU contribute. You know how much your employer contributes and your ROI depends upon your skill in the markets and your risk tolerance. You DP pension makes ME take the risk. If ROI’s fall short – I MUST MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE. And that’s preposterous!!! GIVE ME A % OF YOUR PENSION AND I’LL PLAY THAT GAME AT A GIVEN RISK!!! BUT DON’T MAKE ME TAKE THE DAMN RISK WHEN I GET NOTHING IN RETURN!!!!

    GOT IT???

  14. TheBeachBum Says:

    I know of no private pension plan on the planet where the employer (i.e., the taxpayers) is obligated to make up for investment losses when those responsible for making those investment decisions on behalf of the pension plan make bad decisions.

    How about some REAL reform! Here’s a 5-point plan

    1.) – Retirement age in the private sector is now at 67, it should be the same for ALL public employees!
    2.) – INCLUDE all public safety workers in the same plan as the other employees. Their compensation (and subsequently their retirement) reflects any added risk already.
    3.) – ELIMINATE pension spiking of ANY kind!
    4.) – Change ALL public sector employees to a 401K style plan w/ no guaranteed ROI. 90% of all pension plans in the private sector are NOT defined benefit plans.
    5.) – Eliminate elitist exemptions. ALL working people (including politicians) should belong and contribute to the SAME plan, nationwide. If it’s good enough for the taxpayers, it’s good enough for those we employ.

    ALL public sector employees at every level nationwide should be on the same pension system as the rest of the population, who are paying their salaries and benefits… period… end of story!

  15. Drewsky Says:

    To all of the dweebs that have just bashed me; want to meet somewhere and straighten this out ?

  16. SeeSaw Says:

    I’m nor an actuary. CalPERS employs actuaries who I assume would have produced the charts for air time. It depends on each individual employee’s compensation and age as to whether or not it is a good deal, personally, for them. The authorization to purchase air time is going to be ended with the coming pension reform anyway, so pro and con arguments about it, will be moot.

  17. Captain Says:

    Drewsky Says: “To all of the dweebs that have just bashed me; want to meet somewhere and straighten this out ?”

    Grow up – moron!

  18. Beelzebub Says:

    “To all of the dweebs that have just bashed me; want to meet somewhere and straighten this out ?”

    I wouldn’t walk across to meet you if I were dying of thirst and you had a monopoly on the water supply.

    Rex might want to meet you at LA Boxing for a cup of jo. :)

    Ask him.

  19. Beelzebub Says:

    I don’t need 5 bullet points to describe pension reform. I just need one:

    1) Replace DB pensions with 401-K equivalent w/3% employer match on the first 3% employee contribution for existing public workers and new hires.

    End of message………………

    Nothing follows……………….

  20. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    What if BZ and Rex learn the difference between a DB and DC retirement

    Spension, you made me cry :)

    I thought we were friends ;)

  21. SeeSaw Says:

    In your dreams. The DB pensions are 99 years old in CA and they are not going anywhere.

  22. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    August 13, 2012 at 7:44 pm
    To all of the dweebs that have just bashed me; want to meet somewhere and straighten this out ?

    Drewski made a funny…. LOL…. ;) No thanks internet warrior, I would not want you to break one of your french nails, would interput your keyboard warrior typing duties, which are far more valubale to us for the comedic releif we get from them :)

  23. Drewsky Says:

    ‘Drewsky’ does not like being insulted, as in being called a ‘trough feeder’. (I’m not a military defense contractor). We agree to disagree on these sites, but obviously I would not care to meet any of you, either. However, remember that insulting, abusive rubbish can have a person’s comments blocked.

    By the way, most of you are ‘way off’ in regard to what was really going on in 1999 with Davis, etc. and therefore many of your conclusions are faulty. Also, no one ever seems to bring up Senate Bill 1234. I see comments about how we all should ‘be the same nationwide’ when it comes to benefits. This bill is statewide, but it deserves a look. (If nothing else, it will give you guys something else you can bash…)

  24. Captain Says:

    “Legal pension hikes: air time, golden handshake”

    They’re only legal because our state legislatures (mostly Democrats) are beholden to the public employee unions and have done absolutely nothing to rectify the problem. What these items really represent is a fraud perpetrated on the California taxpayers. When CalPERS finally performed their review of “air-time” they discovered they were undercharging employees by between 12 – 32% of the actual cost for air-time, depending on the employee group, and that was based on returns averaging 7.75%. How much has that cost taxpayers?

    It probably shouldn’t surprise anyone that CalPERS allowed this to happen for as long as they did because it’s consistent with their agenda to protect members at any and all cost to the detriment of taxpayers. When CalPERS did adjust the cost they were quick to inform members that the cost would soon change, thereby allowing members to take FULL advantage of being undercharged. They also allowed members to, and even warned them, that they had a window of opportunity to purchase airtime at the discount rate of 7.75%. They encouraged those interested to submit requests at the reduced cost based on the 7.75% return rate prior to lowering the assumed rate to 7.5%, which would increase cost. A financial expert quoted in an LA TIMES article claimed the same benefit for someone from the private sector would only guarantee 3% for a similar lifetime annuity.

    Golden Handshakes should also be illegal. During the Vallejo Bankruptcy the VPOA was famously quoted as saying “cut our numbers as much as you want but don’t touch our pay or benefits“. I’m sure they knew that scenario would lead to cutting their numbers, which happened. What hasn’t been reported is that they were asking for the “golden handshake” at the same time – asking the city to add two years of service credit to each retirement eligible employees pension payout so the cuts would be voluntary at great expense to the taxpayers via increased pension costs for zero additional service. Another example, a friend of mines sister was planning on retiring from her teaching but she delayed filing her papers because she “heard a rumor” that her union was pushing for the “golden handshake” to help lower the districts cost. Even though she was retiring anyway she received two years of additional service credit.

    Neither of these items really represent true pension reform. Eliminating both service credits & golden handshakes has more to do with eliminating bogus perks that are really a fraud against taxpayers, as are many of the items in governor Jerry browns 12 point pension reform proposal. In fact, many of these issues were supposedly being addressed until Jerry Brown asked that they all be rolled into one comprehensive pension reform plan he was developing (???).

    I guess a twelve point plan sounded much better than what it really is – a FOUR point plan. It could have been a 13 point plan if he would have included the disability scam that provides tax free benefits to the same public employee groups that promote increased taxes for everyone else to support “vital city services”.

    The 12 point plan probably sounded better because many people will associate it with the somewhat successful “Twelve Step” program made famous by “Alcoholics Anonymous”.

  25. Captain Says:

    BTW, they call them “Golden Handshakes” for good reason.

  26. Captain Says:

    SeeSaw Says: “In your dreams. The DB pensions are 99 years old in CA and they are not going anywhere.”

    Quite an aggressive statement coming from a little old lady that worked forty years for a meager pension. Dave, maybe it’s time to come out of the closet and be the man you are. You know, give everyone the down LOW on your charachter creation.

  27. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    LOL (tm,)– I go off on a well deserved week vacation, come back, and Beezytool ™ and Rex the poodle are still out here pushing send on the same old drivel— yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

  28. SeeSaw Says:

    The golden handshakes are usually mentioned in a survey to the employees, from management, to determine general interest. They are meant to entice certain foot-draggers to retire earlier than they had planned. If management doesn’t get the response it is looking for, it will withdraw the issue, and will not recommend that the entity’s officials offer the handshakes. For every golden handshake retirement authorized, in any respective entity, one other permanent payroll position must be dissolved. A program used by my former entity after the world recession happened, was to offer a retiree on the brink of making the decision to retire within a year, one extra year of airtime, to match one year of airtime purchased by the said employee.

  29. Beelzebub Says:

    So what is Bangkok like this time of year?

  30. SeeSaw Says:

    Captain, I am old–a condition over which I have no control. I am female–not a little old lady. My name is not Dave. My pension is not meager, relatively speaking, when compared with thousands of retirees who get far less that I. I have read extensively on the history of the defined benefit pensions in CA–they are certainly not something that reasonable, knowlegable people would want to abolish.

  31. SeeSaw Says:

    Drewsky, I don’t think 1234 is going to move forward–too much opposition. IMO, it is the right idea, at the wrong time.

  32. Captain Says:

    SeeSaw Says:” I have read extensively on the history of the defined benefit pensions in CA–they are certainly not something that reasonable, knowlegable people would want to abolish.”

    If your so knowledgeable then why are you so consistently inaccurate? Seesaw, as long as the taxpayers are getting raped by both CalPERS and the Public Employee Unions you can put me down as both un-reasonable and un-knowledgeable. How is that?

    I’m not buying anything you’re selling! I think you are a complete fraud – just like Dave.

  33. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    If your so knowledgeable then why are you so consistently inaccurate?……..I’m not buying anything you’re selling! I think you are a complete fraud – just like Dave.

    LOL….that sure did make me chuckle!

  34. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    By the way, most of you are ‘way off’ in regard to what was really going on in 1999 with Davis, etc. and therefore many of your conclusions are faulty.

    Actually you said your wages did not go up-I proved you wrong, in that they not only went up, but they went up at 300% the rate of inflation.See for yourself;

    “The union’s single greatest victory, however, was its 2001-2006 contract, greased by more than $3 million in campaign contributions. That contract increased prison guard salaries out of proportion to other state employees and decreased management’s day-to-day control of prisons. ”

    http://www.oocities.org/three_strikes_legal/guard_union_political_power.html

    “Legislators were told the 2001-2006 prison guard contract would cost $567 million; that cost now is expected to be $2 billion. This year the Department of Corrections was $544 million over budget, after five years of multimillion-dollar cost overruns ”

    http://www.oocities.org/three_strikes_legal/guard_union_political_power.html

    “The salary increases, part of a five-year contract giving a cumulative 37 percent pay raise to the union’s 31,000 members, were opposed by the Schwarzenegger administration and the California Senate”

    http://igs.berkeley.edu/library/research/quickhelp/policy/social/ca_prison_union.html

    You can’t fool us Drewsky, we are not your average taxpayers :)

  35. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    LOL (tm,)– I go off on a well deserved week vacation, come back, and Beezytool ™ and Rex the poodle are still out here pushing send on the same old drivel— yaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

    Teddy you PROMISED you and your sock puppets would stay away for an entire week!!!!

    Honor your word brother! :)

  36. Tough Love Says:

    Quoting Drewsky …”I’m fed up reading ignorant comments by people who just want to bash unions.”

    So let me guess:

    (a) You belong to a Union
    (b) and it’s a Public Sector Union
    (c) you are entitled to your cash pay, likely close to what a comparable Private Sector worker would get, and to your pension & benefits, likely 2-4 times (6 times if a safety worker) greater than that Private Sector counterpart.

    Sure you are ………….. but that pension haircut will be coming nonetheless

  37. SeeSaw Says:

    Captain and I could care less whether or not you consider me a fraud–I’m comfortable about who and what I am, and that’s all that matters to me. I offer my take on these issues, from being a public employee and having a lot of experience. CalPERS is my bread and butter. I am going to do my part to make sure that you and your ilk do not succeed in bringing it or any other DB pension system down in CA.

  38. SeeSaw Says:

    What am I consistently inaccurate about, Captain?

  39. SeeSaw Says:

    Only public sector unions and public workers, dislike being rudely insulted, TL?

  40. Captain Says:

    SeeSaw Says: “Captain and I could care less whether or not you consider me a fraud–I’m comfortable about who and what I am, and that’s all that matters to me.”

    – Good, then you shouldn’t really care that I still think you’re a fraud.

    Seesaw says: “I offer my take on these issues, from being a public employee and having a lot of experience. CalPERS is my bread and butter.”

    – Good for you. Now will you just quit taking the butter off my bread to butter your own.

    Seesaw says: “I am going to do my part to make sure that you and your ilk do not succeed in bringing it or any other DB pension system down in CA.”

    – Instead of focusing on the indefensible why don’t you and your ilk quit focusing on gouging the middle class taxpayers in the private sector by justifying everything based on some obscure CEO retiring with 20 million, and start focusing on REAL PENSION REFORM. If you are really about maintaining some form of defined benefit pensions the least you could do is start promoting something palatable to all the suckers that have to pay for the currently very corrupt system. The Dave Low talking points aren’t working for me anymore.

    What do you have to say about that, Dave?

  41. Captain Says:

    SeeSaw Says: “What am I consistently inaccurate about, Captain?”

    – your comments – all of them. You have suddenly become somewhat aggressive, very unbecoming for a lady, yet you suddenly become a “MINIMALIST” when the conversation turns toward either the dollar amount of pension benefits or the ridiculous “pension formulas”. Why is that?

    Seesaw – you are a BIG part of the problem.

  42. spension Says:

    1) Replace DB pensions with 401-K equivalent w/3% employer match on the first 3% employee contribution for existing public workers and new hires.

    Put that 6% in a DB plan and there will be roughly twice the pension benefit than in a DC plan. And Wall Street will make a lot less in fees.

    Now, BZ, you profess to dislike Wall Street, but actually, you want to steer $billions of fees to them. You hate them so much you want them to be richer.

    You and Rex, of course, claimed that the DC fees/expenses for CalSTRS were applicable to the DB plan. The DC plans had 1-2% expense ratios, while the DB has 0.15%. 1 or 2% of hundreds of billions is real money, which you guys want to go to Wall Street, not me.

    No mathematically able person claims DC plans are more efficient than DB plans. DB plans win by a mile. But the DB payouts floated way above the level that was safe, in California. That is our mess. It is really, really hard to clean up.

    Going to DC plans throw out the baby with the bathwater, and just feed the Wall Street banksters.

  43. Tough Love Says:

    Quoting Seesaw (in response to Captain) …” I am going to do my part to make sure that you and your ilk do not succeed in bringing it or any other DB pension system down in CA.”

    Seesaw, neither Captain nor Rex nor Spension, nor I will bring CalPERS “down” …. but reality and Mr. Math most definitely will.

  44. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Put that 6% in a DB plan and there will be roughly twice the pension benefit than in a DC plan.
    spension, put the pipe DOWN!

    There will not be TWICE the benefits in a DB as a DC, in fact there will be less b/c the DB will go BK from investing in risky and speculative investments, like CalTURDS does right now, or do you think that 1% ROI is a good return??????

    OMG, you are not as far gone as seesaw, but you’re getting close ;)

  45. Tough Love Says:

    spension,

    There is quite a bit of truth in your comments re DB vs DC Plans. However one of the biggest problems with PUBIC (vs PRIVATE) Sector DB Plans (besides the excessive level of benefits) is the way the pensions can be “gamed” or “spiked” and how politicians can (and often do, sometime “retroactively”) promise things they don’t have to pay for.

    Unfortunately, history has shown us that the potential benefits of DB plans you outlined are FAR outweighed by detrimental actions of our self-serving politicians in bed with the Unions.

  46. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    SeeSaw Says: “What am I consistently inaccurate about, Captain?”
    – your comments – all of them. You have suddenly become somewhat aggressive,

    seesaw can become testy, VERY testy, and you never know when.

    But Captain, come on now, I doubt seesaw is the person whom you are hinting at her to be, although many of her comments would make MUCH more sense if was. Nope, seesaw is a retired woman, who can be very grouchy if she wakes up on the wrong side of the bed, in her 70’s with her retired carpenter hubby, I believe that.

  47. SeeSaw Says:

    Details, please! What have I said that is inaccurate and aggressive?

  48. SeeSaw Says:

    Minimalist? I state facts–I don’t make up the sizes of pensions or pension formulas. I am one of 1.6 million people who are members of CalPERS–and I am the problem? You make no sense!

  49. SeeSaw Says:

    I have taken nothing from you Captain and shut up the name calling–my name is not Dave! Don’t go out of your house from now on, because you don’t use any of the public services that are available to most citizens, and that most citizens pay for. You should just move to Alaska and live in an Igloo!

  50. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Well, looks like those pension hikes, air time, golden handshakes and DROP scams finally caused the state to implode;

    “California scrambles to pay its bills with more borrowing”…………”Embedded in a Monday report from the California controller is a statistic showing just how much the state is straining to pay its bills before November’s vote on higher taxes”……………..”H.D. Palmer, a spokesman for Gov. Jerry Brown’s Department of Finance, said the state has needed more short-term borrowing because it won’t get the extra revenue it needs until voters approve higher taxes in November”

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/california-politics/2012/08/california-cash-budget.html

    HD Palmer, I have news for you buddy, Prop 30 is DOA and there aint onna be any new tax money. Get used to it trougher ;)

  51. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    You should just move to Alaska and live in an Igloo!

    Seesaw= +1

    Captain, Igloos, if decorated right, can make lovely homes :)

    And you never have an air conditioning bill in the summer!

  52. SeeSaw Says:

    I’m voting, “Yes” on prop. 30, and it has nothing to do with protecting my pension–it has to do with sustaining our State. .

  53. Beelzebub Says:

    You sustain the State by CUTTING, seesaw. Not by furthering their addiction for money. When a dope addict goes to rehab do they give him more crack or do they take away his crack?

    You have no common sense, seesaw. You only say what ‘feels good’ without thinking. One would think that a person of your age would have more wisdom. What happened?

  54. Beelzebub Says:

    The difference between a DB and a DC is very easy. Let’s cut through the bullshit for a second, okay?

    A DB shifts the risk from the employee to the taxpayers. A DC puts the risk where it belongs: On the employee.

    It’s that easy.

    Don’t let people like spension try to distract you with expense ratios. He’s like one of those con artists who screams “Hey, look over there” to distract you while some other schmuck lifts your wallet from you back pocket. Oldest trick in the world.

  55. SeeSaw Says:

    Well Beeze, I guess it was just coincidence that every country, state, and city in the world and US had an economic collapse at the same time, causing me to think there was something sinister behind it. I will be voting, “Yes”, on Prop.30, because I think the state needs a hand. You go join the other dummies on the, “No, side.

  56. SeeSaw Says:

    Oh, and all those private sector workers don’t depend on business from the public sector to help fund their respective 401k’s do they. Course not.

  57. Captain Says:

    SeeSaw Says: “What am I consistently inaccurate about, Captain?”

    Logic. Fairness. Sensibility. Reality.

  58. SeeSaw Says:

    Cop out.

  59. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    The difference between a DB and a DC is very easy. Let’s cut through the bullshit for a second, okay?
    A DB shifts the risk from the employee to the taxpayers. A DC puts the risk where it belongs: On the employee.

    100% CORRECT IMMUNDO!

    The want OTHER POEPLE to bear the risks-especially CalTURDS who is basically gambling in high risk speculative “investments”, and if they go south they want to pass those loses off on other people, people who have far less than the trough feeders gorging their fat piggy mouths! CalTURDS should have no $$ in anything but TY-Bills….

  60. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Captain Says:
    SeeSaw Says: “What am I consistently inaccurate about, Captain?”
    Logic. Fairness. Sensibility. Reality.

    You left out common sense, justice and a sense of compassion for her fellow citizens and taxpayers Captain

    BTW seesaw, Prop 30 is DOA, it is going to lose, and lose BIGTIME. You’re probably looking at 65%-68%, or more, against the tax hikes.

  61. Captain Says:

    Seesaw, your entire existence on this board is a cop out. Other than the David Lowe talking points you have provided nothing other than every reason to reject your perpetually weak and self serving arguments.

    CalPERS is still a complete fraud. The CalPERS board is still a complete fraud.

  62. SeeSaw Says:

    Captain is a complete fraud.

  63. SeeSaw Says:

    I will laughing at you on Nov.7, Rex.

  64. Captain Says:

    “Legal pension hikes: air time, golden handshake”

    They’re only legal because our state legislatures (mostly Democrats) are beholden to the public employee unions and have done absolutely nothing to rectify the problem. What these items really represent is a fraud perpetrated on the California taxpayers. When CalPERS finally performed their review of “air-time” they discovered they were undercharging employees by between 12 – 32% of the actual cost for air-time, depending on the employee group, and that was based on returns averaging 7.75%. How much has that cost taxpayers?

    It probably shouldn’t surprise anyone that CalPERS allowed this to happen for as long as they did because it’s consistent with their agenda to protect members at any and all cost to the detriment of taxpayers. When CalPERS did adjust the cost they were quick to inform members that the cost would soon change, thereby allowing members to take FULL advantage of being undercharged. They also allowed members to, and even warned them, that they had a window of opportunity to purchase airtime at the discount rate of 7.75%. They encouraged those interested to submit requests at the reduced cost based on the 7.75% return rate prior to lowering the assumed rate to 7.5%, which would increase cost. A financial expert quoted in an LA TIMES article claimed the same benefit for someone from the private sector would only guarantee 3% for a similar lifetime annuity.

    Golden Handshakes should also be illegal. During the Vallejo Bankruptcy the VPOA was famously quoted as saying “cut our numbers as much as you want but don’t touch our pay or benefits“. I’m sure they knew that scenario would lead to cutting their numbers, which happened. What hasn’t been reported is that they were asking for the “golden handshake” at the same time – asking the city to add two years of service credit to each retirement eligible employees pension payout so the cuts would be voluntary at great expense to the taxpayers via increased pension costs for zero additional service. Another example, a friend of mines sister was planning on retiring from her teaching but she delayed filing her papers because she “heard a rumor” that her union was pushing for the “golden handshake” to help lower the districts cost. Even though she was retiring anyway she received two years of additional service credit.

    Neither of these items really represent true pension reform. Eliminating both service credits & golden handshakes has more to do with eliminating bogus perks that are really a fraud against taxpayers, as are many of the items in governor Jerry browns 12 point pension reform proposal. In fact, many of these issues were supposedly being addressed until Jerry Brown asked that they all be rolled into one comprehensive pension reform plan he was developing (???).

    I guess a twelve point plan sounded much better than what it really is – a FOUR point plan. It could have been a 13 point plan if he would have included the disability scam that provides tax free benefits to the same public employee groups that promote increased taxes for everyone else to support “vital city services”.

    The 12 point plan probably sounded better because many people will associate it with the somewhat successful “Twelve Step” program made famous by “Alcoholics Anonymous”.

  65. SeeSaw Says:

    Captain thinks his diatribe is so important that he posts the same thing twice. What was that about fairness, Captain? Are these your Captain talking points?

  66. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I will laughing at you on Nov.7, Rex.

    That is what you said about the pension reform votes in San Diego and San Jose too seesaw-how did those go :)

    65%-69%-that is the NO vote on Prop 30-you can take that to the bank seesaw, Prop 30 is DOA!

  67. SeeSaw Says:

    “You left out common sense, justice and a sense of compassion for her fellow citizens and taxpayers Captain.”

    Rex. My posts about air time and golden handshakes are factual, not opinion. I have a different opinion on the merits of Prop. 30, than you. How do you manage to come up with such insulting vitriol, in response to what is informational.. There is noone who cares more about others than me. I am a taxpayer, too. Keep up the insults about my character, and I won’t have to ask the moderators to ban you–you will do it to yourself–again.

  68. SeeSaw Says:

    I don’t remember saying anything about the reform votes in SD or SJ Rex–why don’t you dig that up.

  69. Beelzebub Says:

    Everybody seems to have forgotten CalTURD’S role in the Bell, Ca scandal too. Boy, was that whitewashed or what?

    4 years before the Bell, Ca scandal went public the CalTURD’s Board of Directors reviewed Fatboy Rizzo’s pay raise to $700,000 or more and approved it. None of them questioned it. None of them thought it may have been a typo and asked for clarification. None of them reported it to higher authorities for examination. Nope. The signed off on it without a peep of protest. On top of that, Fatboy was collecting over $700,000 in benefits. including leave time covering about a third of the working year.

    CalTURDS was SILENT!!!

    AND SILENCE IS COMPLICITY!

    Worst of all, none of the people at CalTURDS who approved Fatboy’s massive salary (that would have determined his final pension) had to answer for their malfeasance. Totally whitewashed.

    Just like with former Bell police chief Randy Adams. Exonnerated by his fellow oligarchs and allowed to skate.

    It’s deplorable that our larger system would turn a blind eye to these wrongdoings. But should a peasant walk into a drug store and steal a pack of bubblegum and get caught – they throw the book at him.

    Disgusting! :(

  70. spension Says:

    “The difference between a DB and a DC is very easy. Let’s cut through the bullshit for a second, okay?

    A DB shifts the risk from the employee to the taxpayers. A DC puts the risk where it belongs: On the employee.”

    Coming from BZ, who pointed to the ****DC**** expense ratios for CalSTRS and falsely asserted they were ****DB**** expense ratios.

    An expense ratio of 2% eats up 30% of the *earnings*, those earnings are about 7%. More if the earnings are lower. A **HUGE** deal. That is why DB expense ratios of 0.15% or so are so terrifically better than the huge average expense ratios in the DC industry.

    As for risk: DB systems virtually eliminate longevity risk… if you have a DC plan and you have a reasonable IQ, you know you must save for survival until age 95 or 100. You must personally save a whole lot more for that possibility. In DB systems, those who die early subsidize those who live long. Unfortunately, the private annuity industry, which in principle could do as well as public DB systems, has the same high expense ratios as the DC industry. Although maybe Vanguard is now competing well, finally.

    To summarize: DB systems *reduce* risk.

    However, if the benefits are raised up too high, the taxpayer does assume the risk for stock market failures, in DB systems. That is what happened in California.

    Blaming corruption of unions totally misses a crucial point: non-union state employees actually get the highest pensions. Yes unions argue for their self-interest, but that is no different than every other economic group both in State government and in our society at large.

    Better to blame the voter: they elected all the people who made the decisions, and could vote them out in any given election.

    Abuse of DB systems is *not* inevitable. Here is a report that documents 6 public DB systems that didn’t screw up like California’s:

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

  71. SeeSaw Says:

    The CalPERS Board of Directors does not review individual member’s pension details, Beeze. It was “staff” that saw the numbers and passed them on. CalPERS has since tightened up its own procedures, so that such, as the situation with Bell, won’t occur again. If you have been following, you know that CalPERS has been investigating the questionable pensions to make sure that they were calculated legally–as a result retired officials in Vernon have had their pensions cut back.

  72. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I am a taxpayer, too. Keep up the insults about my character, and I won’t have to ask the moderators to ban you–you will do it to yourself–again.

    seesaw!!!…your making up those whoppers again ;) I have never been “banned”, why do you tell the whoppers ???

    I don’t remember saying anything about the reform votes in SD or SJ Rex–why don’t you dig that up.
    Seesaw, you said you were going to laugh at us when SD and SJ lost on pension reform, they won, in LANDSLIDES!!!! Now you say you will laugh at us on Nov 6/7 when Browns tax hikes win, but they are gouing to lose…just like in SD and SJ, and it is going to be 65%-69% against them, and you and TEDDY know MY PREDICTIONS ARE NEARLY ALWAYS SPOT ON ;)

    The CalPERS Board of Directors does not review individual member’s pension details, Beeze. It was “staff” that saw the numbers and passed them on.
    Hmmm..maybe Captin is right about your identoty seesaw-you seem to know much more than the average retiree!

    If you have been following, you know that CalPERS has been investigating the questionable pensions to make sure that they were calculated legally–as a result retired officials in Vernon have had their pensions cut back.

    LOL..yeah, they frgured out the largest trough feeding scammer in the entire CalTURDS systemw as scamming 10 years AFTER he started the scam…yes, those sleuths at CalTURDS are on top of the scams!!!!! seesaw your comments kill me!

    as a result retired officials in Vernon have had their pensions cut back.

    WOW, they had their $530K annual pensions “cut back’…ohhhh….tell us seesaw when are they going to sue to get back the $5 million they over paid?????

    seesaw my work here is done, stay classy, and maybe you will not get banned :)

  73. SeeSaw Says:

    Whatever you say does not address Beeze’s statement that the CalPERS Board of Directors reviewed the numbers for one employee’s salary and passed it. Office staff and Board are not one and the same. After all, its just common sense, isn’t it?

  74. Beelzebub Says:

    “In DB systems, those who die early subsidize those who live long”

    I have explained this to you before, but you seem to continue to be stuck on stupid, spension.

    CalTURDS itself has stated that their AVERAGE pension recipient lives to age 80. That’s AVERAGE. In other words, some live to 90 and some live to 70. So if they retire at age 55-60 that means that the AVERAGE recipient collects 20-25 years of pension benefits. NONE of them paid enough into the system to cover that entire cost. THEREFORE, THE RISK IS INEVITABLY SHIFTED TO THE TAXPAYER.

    Again, let explain the BASICS that a 7th grader could understand:

    A gov employee ends his 30 year career with a $70,000 salary. He hired on at age 25. @ 2.7%@55 (the STANDARD formula for an Orange County employee) he collects 81% of his salary for life – beginning at age 55. He lives to age 80. 25 years of pension benefits. He collected $56,700 annually for 25 years (not even adding in COLA) or his subsidized medical benefits). 25x$56,700 = $1,417,500.

    So over his 30 year working career $47,500 has to come from somewhere to finance his $1,417,500 lifetime pension ($1,417,500 divided by 30). Over that 30 year working career let’s say his AVERAGE salary was $50,000. Even If he paid a 15% (very generous) contribution towards his pension that would equal $7500 per year or a $225,000 lifetime contribution. At a generous 7% average ROI (which would never happen going forward) over 30 years his investment would have grown to only $767,000 with the TAXPAYER making up the difference of well over $500,000.

    No wonder the pension funds are underfunded by TRILLIONS!!!

    The DC puts the RISK back where it belongs – WITH THE EMPLOYEE!!!

    All government DB retirement programs need to convert to DC’s for new hires and existing employees!

    No more free rides on the backs of the taxpayers!!!

    Expense ratios are a total diversion from the core ripoff perpetrated by the DB pension.

    spension is math challenged. I suggest that he enroll in a community math course designed for those entering high school.

  75. Beelzebub Says:

    . “The CalPERS Board of Directors does not review individual member’s pension details, Beeze”

    It was reported that the CalTURD’s BOD signed off and approved Fatboy Rizzo’s salary increase to $700,000, seesaw. If they signed off on it – THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE!!! NO EXCUSES!!!

    IF I SIGN A DOCUMENT THEREBY AGREEING WITH IT’S CONTENTS – I AM LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHATEVER I AGREED TO!!! SO SHOULD THE CALTURD’S BOD!!!!

    And any staff members that did not report that enormous salary increase should have been minimally FIRED for failing to report the suspicious nature of the salary increase that would have been the primary factor of determining his pension.

    Stop making excuses, Seesaw. I am going to start calling you the Teflon Lady!!! :D

  76. SeeSaw Says:

    Beeze, show the document where it says that the CalPERS Board of Directors reviewed and signed off on Rizzo’s salary figures, after they were presented to CalPERS staff. It is ridiculous to report that the CalPERS Board reviewed and signed off on the figures for one member. I’m sure that the Board sat around the conference table and reviewed my employment history before my pension was approved, too–sure it did.

    Call me anything you want, as long as its true.

  77. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Oh Beelz, you smacked spension back into the stone ages…and yes, why does he/she not understand AVERAGE life spans and keeps going back to the ones who die early, while ignoring the ones who die later than the average span????

    As for seesaw, Captain claims seesaw is a sock puppet account for one of the states public pension officials, and her comments NEVER come close to agreeing with even the most outrageous CulTURDS abuses, so who knows.

    Teddy is back over at CWD, so I am hanging out here for a while……..

    seesaw, stop saying I was banned, that is false and you know it. We are never going to have that close relationship we once had while you make such slanderous comments, sometimes I wonder how your hubby deals with you :)

  78. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Poor poodle and beezyboob– they argue like children. Now– read this and see how the grown ups do it…

    Media is Wrongly Hyping Pensions as a Cause of City Bankruptcies
    August 8, 2012

    By Rob Feckner

    If there is one thing I have learned in my time on the CalPERS board it’s this – a little perspective goes a long way. This is especially true when it comes to the news coverage of CalPERS’ recently announced investment returns for last fiscal year and the criticism of pensions in municipal bankruptcies. Let me offer a little perspective.

    Last fiscal year, CalPERS earned a 1 percent return on our investments. The news has caused some people, including the media, to claim that the sky is falling and to demand that CalPERS “get real” and lower our investment assumptions. A few people have even personally blamed our investment staff.

    The flurry of news and editorials demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of CalPERS’ investment strategy. It also mischaracterizes how a single year return will actually affect pension costs for taxpayers. As one astute financial editor put it, the reporting and short-term views of our investment returns is largely what’s wrong with our financial industry and the media who breathlessly cover it.

    CalPERS is a long-term investor. This concept is either ignored or misinterpreted by many on a regular basis, and is the greatest source of misunderstanding and misinformation about pensions. As a long-term investor, we fully expect a range of possible returns every year.

    Occasionally, returns will be negative, and occasionally, returns will be high, like the previous year’s 21.7 percent gain.

    Historically, CalPERS has regularly outperformed our long-term 7.5 percent goal over a 20-year average. Our 30-year average even exceeds 9 percent.

    If the media and our critics insist on looking at returns on a single-year basis they should tell taxpayers the full story – we posted gains not just in excess, but in significant excess of our goal of 7.5 percent 14 times in the past 20 years.

    Last year’s 1 percent return will be reflected in local government contribution rates two years from now. But, just like when we have large gains, losses are spread over 30 years to ensure employer rates remain as stable and predictable as possible. Any increases due to last year’s returns will likely be very small.

    A similar lack of perspective exists over the reporting of recent bankruptcy filings, including Stockton and San Bernardino. Fiscal challenges facing our cities and counties are difficult and worrisome for everyone involved. But pensions, generally, are not the problem. The real culprit is the economy and housing market, along with financial decisions made by city officials.

    For example, Stockton borrowed heavily to build a new city hall, a sports and entertainment facility, baseball park and marina. San Bernardino lost major employers when the Kaiser steel plant and Norton Air Force Base closed. Both cities are among the top five housing foreclosure cities in the nation, resulting in high unemployment and reduced consumer spending and sales taxes.

    It’s true that total employee compensation is the biggest expense for cities, often 70 percent to 80 percent of city budgets. That being said, budgets are built with those employee costs in mind. Budgets are not built around being in the top five foreclosure cities in the nation.

    Pension costs are a small piece of the budget. Stockton’s pension costs are only about 6 percent of the total city budget. In San Bernardino, pension costs account for 10 percent of the total city budget.

    The bottom line is that it’s not fair to scapegoat public employees and pensions for the financial woes of our cities or of our entire state for that matter.

    When it comes to pensions, the media and our critics should try a little honest perspective. It goes a long way.

    Read the Op-Ed.

    Share on facebookShare on emailShare on favoritesShare on print| More Sharing ServicesMore

    Category: Pension Reform

    Add a Comment :

    In order to add a comment you must be logged in and have a screen name. Login Now.
    Not a member? Register Now.

    Member Comments: 0 comments

  79. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy, your so called “vacation” week is NOT UP YET!!!

    Please, leave us alone, you promised!!!!

  80. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Media is Wrongly Hyping Pensions as a Cause of City Bankruptcies
    August 8, 2012

    By Rob Feckner

    If there is one thing I have learned in my time on the CalPERS board it’s this …
    OK, I stopped reading right here, that is all I need to know to know it is propaganda :)

    Nice cut and paste Teddy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  81. spension Says:

    BZ, of course, you couldn’t tell the difference between CalSTRS DC and DB plans. And your post about the 2.7%@55 example failed on a very simple criteria: I have never supported that high level of benefit, nor do the 6 state DB pension systems that are in fairly good shape documented at:

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

    provide that level of benefit. If your point is that California’s voters voted in people who irresponsibly raised benefit levels to unsustainable levels: I AGREE!

    But if you point the finger at DB systems as the cause: I DISAGREE.

    The simple fact: DB systems are about twice as economical as DC systems. DB systems absolutely reduce risk… in a DC pension system, every single person must save enough money to survive until 95 or 100… nobody knows who will live a long time, so every single solitary saver must save enough or reduce their withdrawals enough to cover a long live.

    But in the thousands of people in a DB pool, we absolutely know that *all* of them will *not* live until 95 or 100. Some will die at 70, or even 60. And so in a DB system you only need to plan for everyone to live until age 80 or 85 (depending on careful actuarial work). In any case, you save huge amounts of money.

    It is well known as the longevity effect, and is well documented to be an economizer.

    You can rant and rave that expense ratios are unimportant… but the math utterly contradicts you… Jack Bogle built an extremely successful business (Vanguard) on the premise. You are simply wrong.

    Add it all up: DB pension systems are roughly twice as economical as DC systems, and, DB pension systems feed the crooks on Wall Street *way less* than DC systems pay them. You can’t really get away from Wall Street entirely (Bogle likes to say: `Invest we must’.)

    But the best we can do is minimize their take. DB systems have shown they can do that.

  82. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Well said spension but I am afraid that the little troll will not be at all able to follow your point. Sad.

  83. Beelzebub Says:

    “And so in a DB system you only need to plan for everyone to live until age 80 or 85 (depending on careful actuarial work). In any case, you save huge amounts of money”

    BS.

    That was not your original argument. Your original argument was that the pensioniers who die earlier make up for the ones who live to a average lifespan of 80. You failed to mention the pensioniers who live to 90 or 95, did you? You willfully omitted them for some odd reason. :)

    Besides, most pensioniers include a beneficiary on their pension. So if they die their beneficiary collects until he or she dies which cancels out your purported ‘savings’, which is nothing but a bunch of hooey.

    This is your logic, spension: You would say that it is more ecoomical and makes better sense to purchase a $200,000 Lambourghini that gets 40 mpg than it is to purchase a $35,000 Ford that gets 25 mpg.

    The nonsense you spew is incredible, spension.

  84. Beelzebub Says:

    “During a routine audit in 2006, CalPERS learned that Bell City Manager Robert Rizzo had received a 47% salary increase the year before, driving his pay up to $442,000. CalPERS is supposed to stop pay spikes that can unduly enlarge retiree pensions, but officials signed off on Rizzo’s raise because Bell’s assistant city manager and City Council members were also getting enormous boosts. CalPERS took no further action. Rizzo’s salary would eventually grow to nearly $800,000″

    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/06/local/la-me-bell-pensions-20100806

    Smoke some of that, seesaw! :D

  85. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    LOL….Beelz just took seesaw to the woodshed…….seesaw, has been smoking too much trough feeder news weed :)

  86. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    The nonsense you spew is incredible, spension.
    == :)

    You can sub in Teddy or seesaws name and it is the same!

  87. SeeSaw Says:

    That was “officials”, as in CalPERS officials–not Board members.

  88. spension Says:

    Nope. What innumerate mayo from BZ and Rex.

    In a DC plan, *everybody* must save for longevity, because those who die early don’t transfer their funds to those who live a long time. Every single person might be the one who has to plan for the survival until 95 or 100.

    In a DB plan, there is a large number of people in the pool, and the early-diers pay for the long-livers. Yes, one survivor is allowed, and there are actuarial tables for that. Like when the oldest living Civil War veterans, age 95, married 18 year old wives, some of whom only recently passed away. But statistically, it is studied and covered.

    Nice graphic of the savings of DB plans over DC plans. Of course, there will always be folks like Rex and BZ who claim the earth is flat, sitting on a toilet seat can get you pregnant, and it ain’t a sin if one foot stays on the floor….

  89. SeeSaw Says:

    It says right in the article that CalPERS staff members did not alert the CalPERS Board about the situation.

  90. SeeSaw Says:

    You can’t judge anything as being propaganda, Rex, unless you read it.

  91. Beelzebub Says:

    “That was “officials”, as in CalPERS officials–not Board members”

    Doesn’t really matter who did it. All of them represent CalTURDS, don’t they seesaw? It could have been Board members. But it was definitely CalTURD’S officials. That we know! Whoever saw Rizzo’s HUGE salary increase and signed off on it AND failed to follow-up or notify higher authorities should be FIRED and quite possibly face criminal charges for aiding and abetting criminal activity. Anyone who works in a private company who did the same and was found out would get their butts terminated forthwith. But government slugs always seem to skate.

  92. Beelzebub Says:

    “In a DB plan, there is a large number of people in the pool, and the early-diers pay for the long-livers”

    It’s the MEAN number that counts, spension.

    Not the early diers or the late diers. Let MEAN or AVERAGE sink inside your skull and stick. And currently the MEAN lifespan for CalTURDS retirees is over 80 years of age!!

    And as I told you, most pensioniers have a beneficiary named in the event of an early death – which cancels out your theory anyway.

    But I know you’re still stuck on stupid so I expect your lame comebacks.

  93. Beelzebub Says:

    “It says right in the article that CalPERS staff members did not alert the CalPERS Board about the situation”

    Had they claimed they had it would have been instant termination.

    Doesn’t mean they didn’t. Government workers lie all the time.

  94. SeeSaw Says:

    Keep any fantasy that you want to keep Beelze–that way you never have to admit that you are wrong about anything. Put your thinking cap on–do you really believe that the CEO and other CalPERS officials are going to pass the question of one public employee’s pension on to the Board. CalPERS has 1.6 million members, and the Board does not look at each member’s pension statement. Where Rizzo and his officials were concerned, the chain of command, on that day, stopped at the CalPERS office.

  95. spension Says:

    Saying you are stuck on stupid would be a terrific compliment, BZ.

    The mean matters only in the limit of a large pool, and that is exactly my point. You need only plan for the mean in a pooled DB plan.

    But in a DC plan it is *not* the mean that matters, because, with only one person in the pool, the *fluctation* dominates, and you must plan for that.

    To wit: in a large pooled DB plan, the mean age might be 84 y (including the 1 survivor), the age where there is a 1% chance that the pool survives to might only be 84.0001 years, because of the law of large numbers.

    But in a DC plan, there is a 1% chance you survive to age 102 or so.

    So in the DC plan you much save way, way more money per person than in a DB plan to get the same performance.

    Just like car insurance: if everyone had to self-insure, they’d have to keep $500,000 in a car catastrophe direct contribution account.

    But instead millions of people pay $2,000/year for car insurance, because, in most years, they won’t have an accident.

    Odd how so many people interested in DB pensions miss this basic point… the pooling effect spreads their risk, making DB just less risky.

    The DB risk comes from: innumerate California politicians voting `yes’ on unsustainably high pension benefits, and yes, it happened in California, but not in these 6 DB pensions (all of which have way lower payout rates and higher regular contributions than California):

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

  96. Beelzebub Says:

    “CalPERS has 1.6 million members, and the Board does not look at each member’s pension statement”

    Of those 1.6 members how many were city managers with salaries of nearly $800,000 and a benefit package of about $750,000?

    Don’t you think that would be worthy of a CEO’s attention?

    I do.

    Didn’t you read this sentence in the article I linked above:

    “CalPERS is supposed to stop pay spikes that can unduly enlarge retiree pensions, but officials signed off on Rizzo’s raise …..”

    That’s wasn’t an option. That was a job function and responsibility. But you government workers think that you can change the rules as you go along, don’t ya?? heh. :)

  97. Beelzebub Says:

    spension, there is no guesswork with a 401-k equivalent. All you have to do is match the employee’s first 3% contribution and you’re done. You don’t have to worry about lifespans. You don’t have to worry about ROI’s. That’s the reason the DC plans are MUCH better than the DB plans. You don’t have to burden the taxpayers with the unknown risk involved. You would rather complicate things and add unknown variables that end up screwing the taxpayers. You must be a government worker or closely related to one by the way you pump the DB’s. You are not a friend of the taxpayer. I know that for a fact.

  98. SeeSaw Says:

    Don’t put it on me Beeze. I didn’t make the rules, and I followed the rules. You can’t paint all public workers with the same brush. Most are hard working and honest. What you had in Bell were corrupt people who had some very poor, unsophisticated residents as their loyalists. Bell is not the only City to be in that situation–there were a few more. I do believe someone should have sounded the alarm on Rizzo’s salary increase, but the staff involved obviously did not care. In any case, the Board was not involved.

  99. SeeSaw Says:

    Don’t be silly Beeze. You might run out of obligations on one end, if you replace DB pensions with 401K’s, but i you are just going to have obligations on the other end–and the economy and the society at large will be all the poorer for it.

  100. Beelzebub Says:

    “I do believe someone should have sounded the alarm on Rizzo’s salary increase, but the staff involved obviously did not care”

    How many other violations does CalTURDS conveniently overlook? If they ignore some fat whale city manager with an $800,000 salary what else do they ignore? Was anybody at CalTURDS fired for covering it up? Of course not. On the contrary they were probably promoted. That’s government for ya. Hell, it’s only ‘other people’s money’. Why the hell should they care??? :(

  101. Beelzebub Says:

    “…….and the economy and the society at large will be all the poorer for it”

    That’s not true. The ones who are forced to pay higher taxes to fund the DB’s would be richer if we went to to an exclusive DC program for all government employees. That way the taxpayers would have more discretionary income to spend in the economy. Screw the government workers. Why should they get bigger and better benefits than the private workforce and expect everyone to pay for it? Spoiled brats.

  102. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    You can’t paint all public workers with the same brush. Most are hard working and honest.

    seesaew, you have so MUCH materail for a stand up comic routine in your comments that I think you have a great new way to really supplement your income!

  103. SeeSaw Says:

    Don’t worry about me Rex. I am serious, and I don’t need any supplement to my income. I worry about the two of you though–you’re going to implode at the rate you are going. You’d probably be better off to start each day with a big cry.

  104. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    LOL..I only cry for you seesaw ;) (and your fellow scammers), b/c tha pension haircut is just around the corner….ask Stockton :) Cuts are coming to CalTURDS CURRENNT retirees. They tried to bluff, and that bluff has been called.

  105. spension Says:

    BZ says: You don’t have to worry about lifespans.

    What in heaven’s name are you talking about? 401(k) money is supposed to last for your entire retirement lifespan. You absolutely have to make it last for your lifespan. I have DC plans, I know. A person must make their DC plan last until the end of their life, they must very much worry about their lifespan, and there is a 1% chance or so they’ll live to 100, so they need to save enough for that possibility. And the sum they must save is about twice as much, consequently, than in a pooled DB plan.

    That’s the reason the DC plans are MUCH better than the DB plans.

    DC plans give 1-2% expense ratios to Wall Street, which adds up to tens of billions to hundreds of billions a year. Why do you want to give such large amounts of money to the fraudsters and bankers on Wall Street? DB plans give only 0.15% or so (at least the good ones do, bad ones like CalPERS give 0.5%).

    You would rather complicate things and add unknown variables that end up screwing the taxpayers.

    WTF? I understand that DB plans save money for the taxpayer, because in the end, 1)the taxpayer pays less to the fraudsters on Wall Street, and 2)taxpayer money, say, the 3% contribution, are used twice as efficiently. It is you who wants to piss away taxpayer money on wasteful expense for the bankers on Wall Street; I want to minimize what they get, you want to maximize it.

    You are not a friend of the taxpayer. I know that for a fact.

    You say you are a friend to the taxpayer for wasting 10-100’s of billions their taxes on frauds on Wall Street, and halving the effectiveness of the 3% you say they could pay on public pensions.

    You way wasting their money is being a friend.

    Your statement goes with: `Freedom is Slavery’ and `We destroyed the village to save it.’ Just Orwellian doublespeak.

    BTW, you did not know that CalSTRS 403(b) and 457(b) plans were DC plans, you claimed they were DB. Do you know anything at all about pensions? I think not, given that ignorant mistake that you and Rex made. You fundamentally didn’t know that 403(b)’s and 457(b)’s were DC. Shows how ignorant you and Rex are.

    The root problem in California has been benefit formulas that are WAY TOO HIGH, given the contributions. I fully support reduction of the benefits, always have, always will. That is true friendly behavior to both the taxpayer and the pensioner. 1% at 62 would work. A little higher might work. Want examples of 6 pensions systems scattered through the US that are OK, unlike California’s? Here they are… none of 3% @50 or 2.75% @55, like California. And make no doubt about it: Sovereign Default is on California’s horizon if we don’t reduce benefits for existing employees and pensioners:

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

  106. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Ya know Rexypoodle— seesaw is right— you too should consider starting each day off with a 30 min cry. It would seriously be a big emotional release for you two. You may find then that you were calmer and more rational and perhaps even your posts might be readable and cogent? It’s worth a try. You two do seem like you’re about to take hostages.

    I am serious—- a big cry each am might help. And then maybe a hug?

  107. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    238.4 billion as of today. = #calpersfund

  108. SeeSaw Says:

    One-percent at 62? Where would the money come from to pay the medical insurance premiums? From the 457(b) DC plans that most CalPERS beneficiares also had when working? If one-percent at 62 would pay the bills, everyone would be on board–but it would not–would not work–so why suggest such? We are trying to get pension reform going in CA–not trying to devistate everyone’s lives!

  109. spension Says:

    Sure, I said 1% @62 would not have exceeded the pension fund assets. 3% @ 50 seems to be to high. Further, the actuaries seem to have messed up… a severe stock market downturn results in unrealistic employer contributions being required. I much prefer flat contributions for all time and then setting the benefits such that you never have to violate that flat contribution, in the worst market downturn consistent with history (like, 1929-1934).

    Those 6 funds I mentioned have 1.67%-2.4%/year formulas.

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

    I think they have higher employee contributions than is was common in California up until the last few years too.

    In any case: medical care is another rat’s nest in the US. It sure would help everyone to solve that. Putting the burden of our dysfunctional healthcare system on the pension system does feel kinda weird.

  110. Beelzebub Says:

    “401(k) money is supposed to last for your entire retirement lifespan”

    It’s not the government’s job or your employer’s job to make sure you have enough retirement money. IT’S YOUR JOB!!! If you don’t have enough – then KEEP WORKING or HONE DOWN YOUR LIFESTYLE SO THAT YOU’RE MONEY WILL LAST!!!

    Is that too hard for you to understand. You’re always looking for a nanny to take care of you, huh??? Well, you’re not wearing diapers anymore. Time to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF instead of expecting others to care for your needs. BE SELF-SUFFICIENT FOR GOD’S SAKE!!!

    “DC plans give 1-2% expense ratios to Wall Street, which adds up to tens of billions to hundreds of billions a year”

    Screw your expense ratios. You’ve already lost the DB-DC argument so you continue to focus on BS. Again, an equivalent argument would be “It’s more cost effective to buy a new $200k Lambourghini that gets 45mpg than it is to buy a new $35k Ford that gets 25mpg”. Only an idiot would agree with that!

    “It is you who wants to piss away taxpayer money on wasteful expense for the bankers on Wall Street”

    BS. Wall Street banksters get a cut of the DB’s just like they do the DC’s. Go look at the number of Wall Street investment advisors on the payroll at CalTURDS if you question that. With a 401-K equivalent all you would need it ONE broker company to manage the entire plan. The clients would get big discounts on the fund fees and all the Wall Street fatcats would get CUT OUT!!!

    DB’s are what keep the Wall Street fat cats rich!!! GO LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF WALL STREET FAT CATS WHO ARE CALTURD’S INVESTMENT ADVISORS!!! DO I HAVE TO POST THE LIST FOR YOU AGAIN???

    “The root problem in California has been benefit formulas that are WAY TOO HIGH, given the contributions”

    We will NEVER see the DB formula’s come down. The unions won’t allow it. That’s why we need to ELIMINATE them completely and covert over to 401-k equivalents!!!

    The PRIVATE SECTOR should be the GOLD STANDARD for RETIREMENT PLANS!!!

    Whatever the PRIVATE SECTOR DOES – the PUBLIC SECTOR SHOULD FOLLOW!!!

    After all, It’s the PRIVATE SECTOR that FINANCES the PUBLIC’S SECTOR’S RETIREMENT PLANS!!!

    I am speaking LOGICALLY and RATIONALLY here. You are being an obstinate fool who is perpetually STUCK ON STUPID!!! :D

  111. SeeSaw Says:

    If you are going to be responsible for yourself you have to have a job to get the money to take care of yourself, don’t you, Beeze. So, anyway you want to look at it, the job sectors are responsible for the sustainability of society. DB pensions, in general, are going to do a much better job of taking care of people than requiring everyone to fund an individual DC plan–only the very rich can sustain themselves that way.

  112. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Beezybood— SPENSION won the dc-db argument— he clobbered you little buddy! Sorry!

  113. Beelzebub Says:

    “If you are going to be responsible for yourself you have to have a job to get the money to take care of yourself, don’t you, Beeze”

    If you or anybody did not have enough to retire THEN YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE QUIT OR RETIRED FROM YOUR JOB, seesaw.

    Your future is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. NOT MINE, NOT YOUR EMPLOYER’S and NOT SOCIETY’s IN GENERAL. IT’S YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. GROW THE HELL UP!!!!

    “So, anyway you want to look at it, the job sectors are responsible for the sustainability of society”

    You never really grew up, did you seesaw? You are an old person who still expects somebody to take care of you. Sad.

  114. Beelzebub Says:

    “Beezybood— SPENSION won the dc-db argument— he clobbered you little buddy! Sorry!”

    Go back on vaca, teddy. It was very pleasant around here with you gone. You add nothing of value. And take your imaginary buddies, queeq and Uhaul, with you. :D

  115. G-Man Says:

    Oh my god……what a sad, angry, old man.

  116. Beelzebub Says:

    Seesaw, Teddy and Spension are perfect example of modern day “Entitleists” in America.

    They are the reason nearly HALF of the American population is collecting some sort of welfare payment – BECAUSE IT IS SOMEBODY ELSES RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE FOOD, MEDICAL CARE AND A ROOF OVER THEIR HEADS!!! heh.

    This is the reason the American system is unsustainable. Because of the likes of Seesaw, Teddy and Spension. They and their ideological comrades have built an ENTITLEMENT system that is bound to collapse. Like little children – they expect someone else to be there to throw them the lifeline. Just like little children. Sad.

  117. spension Says:

    BZ says… It’s not the government’s job or your employer’s job to make sure you have enough retirement money. IT’S YOUR JOB!!! If you don’t have enough – then KEEP WORKING or HONE DOWN YOUR LIFESTYLE SO THAT YOU’RE MONEY WILL LAST!!!

    Is that too hard for you to understand. You’re always looking for a nanny to take care of you, huh??? Well, you’re not wearing diapers anymore. Time to TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF instead of expecting others to care for your needs. BE SELF-SUFFICIENT FOR GOD’S SAKE!!!

    Sorry, the point is: DB plans are cheaper than DC plans, it is just that simple. The reason the private sector gave up on DB plans was that guys like Ivan Boesky (among others) raided the pension funds. It is a case where the private sector in the US proved too corrupt to do the right thing. It is not the only such case… look at how regulated water, electric power, and sewage are in the US… simply because the private sector circa 1900 was too corrupt to handle those things, and so they were either made municipal or special district responsibilities, or, heavily regulated private sector entities.

    DB plans simply give better value, and the US private sector has proven incapable of managing DB plans. Blind religion that the US private sector is always better and more efficient is just that… blind religion. The facts are otherwise, although there are certainly many parts of our economic system that are way, way better run by the private sector. A one-size-fits all approach doesn’t work.

    Screw your expense ratios. You’ve already lost the DB-DC argument so you continue to focus on BS. Again, an equivalent argument would be “It’s more cost effective to buy a new $200k Lambourghini that gets 45mpg than it is to buy a new $35k Ford that gets 25mpg”. Only an idiot would agree with that!

    You’re right, the Lamborghini is the DC plan and the Ford is the DB plan.

    BS. Wall Street banksters get a cut of the DB’s just like they do the DC’s. Go look at the number of Wall Street investment advisors on the payroll at CalTURDS if you question that. With a 401-K equivalent all you would need it ONE broker company to manage the entire plan. The clients would get big discounts on the fund fees and all the Wall Street fatcats would get CUT OUT!!!

    DB’s are what keep the Wall Street fat cats rich!!! GO LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF WALL STREET FAT CATS WHO ARE CALTURD’S INVESTMENT ADVISORS!!! DO I HAVE TO POST THE LIST FOR YOU AGAIN???

    But even at CalPERS, their cut is only 0.5%. In DC plans, the cut is 1-2%. In CalSTRS and UCRS, the cut is only 0.15%. `Invest we must’, as Jack Bogle says. Given that, minimize the overhead to the banksters in DB plans. Now maybe Vanguard’s annuities start to get into the realm of competing with the DB plans in California w/r to fees and expenses.

    You are just wrong, fees and expenses are a huge, huge deal. You have no rational argument against that. Look at the figure:

    We will NEVER see the DB formula’s come down. The unions won’t allow it. That’s why we need to ELIMINATE them completely and covert over to 401-k equivalents!!!

    This is plain wrong… new employees already have lower formulas. We need to keep that process going, or, organize an orderly Sovereign Default, where all California debt holders take haircuts.

    The PRIVATE SECTOR should be the GOLD STANDARD for RETIREMENT PLANS!!!

    Whatever the PRIVATE SECTOR DOES – the PUBLIC SECTOR SHOULD FOLLOW!!!

    After all, It’s the PRIVATE SECTOR that FINANCES the PUBLIC’S SECTOR’S RETIREMENT PLANS!!!

    I am speaking LOGICALLY and RATIONALLY here. You are being an obstinate fool who is perpetually STUCK ON STUPID!!!

    Oh, the comedy of this… go and claw back all the pension funds that were liquidated by corporate raiders in the 1980’s and 1990’s.

    Maybe Vanguard will finally compete with public pooled DB plans… I hope so. But all the other annuity companies charge the outrageously high 1-2% fees.

    Remember it was the Republican Party (including Teddy Roosevelt and our Governor/Senator Hiram Johnson) that busted the trusts and brought regulation to a runaway private sector circa 1910. I certainly have family stories about the Railroad in California. The private sector can and has gone seriously wrong.

    Remember deregulation of Wall Street led to the mess we are in… Wall Street is the pinnacle of the private sector. We always need a public sector, if you don’t believe that, move immediately to Somalia and you can live your dream of no public sector.

    But of course I agree that pension benefits got too high in California. The point is to be rational and thoughtful about the most efficient way out. And DC plans are *not* the most efficient way out… they reward the frauds on wall street the most, and screw the little guy the most. Badly run DB plans are also a plague. But well run DB systems are the best… and remember, here are 6 that are well run with lower payouts than California:

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

  118. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Ya know Rexypoodle— seesaw is right— you too should consider starting each day off with a 30 min cry. It would seriously be a big emotional release for you two. You may find then that you were calmer and more rational and perhaps even your posts might be readable and cogent? It’s worth a try. You two do seem like you’re about to take hostages

    Adelento is all I need, no crying in Adelento baby!

    Teddy, how are your two side kicks Uhaul and Queeg doing?? How did they enjoy your vacation?? :)

  119. SeeSaw Says:

    I worked most of my adult life, Beeze. I saved diligently in a 457(b) and had enough at retirement time, that I can buy the groceries. The DB pension sustains me and my spouse–we worked and now we take care of ourselves, thanks to the benefits that we earned as we worked. How did you do it all by yourself, that no job providers played a part, Beeze? I would like to know.

  120. SeeSaw Says:

    Things must really be bad for you right now, Rex. Adelanto is the desert, and its, !!HOT!!

  121. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Pretty hot, but I have a pool-above groung…………..I invited Teddy and his sock puppets over but Teddy is not showing Rex any love :)

  122. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    The Poodle LOVES Adelanto—- He moved his single wide down from Trona!

    mmmmmmmmmmm

  123. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    That’s it Teddy, you and your sock puppets just got UNINVITED from the Adelanto pool partay of the year, your loss lil buddy!

  124. Beelzebub Says:

    “Sorry, the point is: DB plans are cheaper than DC plans, it is just that simple”

    That’s strange. Show me ONE 401-K plan in the nation that is in financial trouble or that is underfunded. Yet I can show you DOZENS of DB pension plans that are in HUGE trouble. So what you say makes NO sense. Par for the course, though. Your lips flap and indefensible gibberish comes out.

    “DB plans simply give better value, and the US private sector has proven incapable of managing DB plans”

    If DB plans were better than DC plans – all of the DB plans would be OVERFUNDED and the DC plans would be UNDERFUNDED. However, the EXACT OPPOSITE is true making you look like a fool once again.

    “You’re right, the Lamborghini is the DC plan and the Ford is the DB plan”

    That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER and just reinforces my belief that you are a waterboy for the government workers.

    “But even at CalPERS, their cut is only 0.5%”

    That has to be total bullshit. There are at least 216 Wall Street investment firms that manage the CalPERS fund. Their cut would be MUCH more than 0.5%. And that doesn’t even count the expense fees that CalPERS must pay on all their investment vehicles. I believe nothing you say.

    “Oh, the comedy of this… go and claw back all the pension funds that were liquidated by corporate raiders in the 1980′s and 1990′s”

    Show me ONE corporate DC plan that is in financial trouble. Show me ONE corporate DC plan that is underfunded. Show me ONE DC plan that has caused a corporate bankrupcy.

    You can’t.

    Yet I can show you MANY gov DB plans are are in FINANCIAL TROUBLE, UNDERFUNDED AND HELPED CAUSE MUNICIPAL BANKRUPCIES (which is damned are to do, btw).

    Which PROVES that the PRIVATE SECTOR is the GOLD STANDARD that the PUBLIC SECTOR should MIMIC!!!

    It’s so easy to slap your opinions down, Spension. You come up with the same old indefensible positions that do not hold up under the pressure of scrutiny. The more that you throw up on the board – the faster I slap them down.

    Is that all you got, man??? heh. Sad. :)

  125. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Belz, what did I tell you the average cop/firewhiner comp was…$200K, right? Well I was right !!

    http://unionwatch.org/average-total-compensation-for-san-jose-city-worker-is-175000-per-year/

  126. Beelzebub Says:

    Thanks for posting that article, rex.

    Just more proof that the public compensation system to totally out of control. Like a runaway train barreling down the side of a mountain. The high-tech folks in Silicon Valley don’t even make what these government GED slugs collect. They are the equivalent of America’s new “Communist Party” who are privy to special fvors and privileges that the peasants who pay for it all are excluded from. It will be hilarious as the money runs out how the chief government thugs will distribute the tax dollars. If they take it away from the welfare leeches there will be riots in the streets. If they take it away from the government slugs the unions will run to the courts. But in the end I think the welfare leeches win and the government slugs lose. It will be fun to watch.

  127. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    LOL Beeezyboob– the end is near I tell ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  128. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    Beezytool— give it up little buddy– spension has obliterated you on the db/dc debate— it’s over little fella! You’re just repesting the same old drivel he has de bunked time and again. Do you get paid by the word?

    ooooouch– Teddy boy

  129. Beelzebub Says:

    The house is on fire and Spension is on the phone making an appointment with the termite inspector.

    You and spension are not mental giants, Teddy. You prove that over and over again. You focus on distractions and avoid the heart of the matter.

    You are like keystone cops. Your idiocy provides entertainment. That’s your gift to us. Thank you.

  130. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy, mental giant..hahahahahhahahah…. ;) Teddy, Beelz has destroyed you, if I were you I would keep your sock puppets clear of CP!

  131. Beelzebub Says:

    I am totally shocked that queeq and u-haul haven’t shown up here yet.

    Oh, and whatever happened to ‘sludge’, Teddy? He was a real jewel for sure! ;)

  132. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Sludge- yes, thatTeddy gimmick account is long gone…Teddy has had so many I lose track after 1 or 2 days :)

  133. Beelzebub Says:

    Spension, you still there?

    I will ask again. Show me one 401-k plan in the nation that is underfunded or at risk for default. Show me one 401-k plan that has helped cause a corporation to go bankrupt. Just one, spension.

    I can show you many DB pension plans in deep trouble. DB plans that shift the risk from the employee to the taxpayer.

    Take off your blinders, spension. Look at this objectively.

  134. spension Says:

    BZ sez… That’s strange. Show me ONE 401-K plan in the nation that is in financial trouble or that is underfunded.

    Color Tile, Enron, Countrywide Finance, Bear-Stearns – there are 4. You forget that companies often give their match in company stock and then go bankrupt.

    If DB plans were better than DC plans – all of the DB plans would be OVERFUNDED and the DC plans would be UNDERFUNDED. However, the EXACT OPPOSITE is true making you look like a fool once again.

    All??? Are you daft?? here are 6 that are not:

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

    Do you not get the simple point: in California the benefits were raised up way to high? I guess not. There are a great many public pension plans that are just fine in the US. California is horrible example, because of the 3%@50 type of benefits.

    But you already proved that you don’t even know what a DC plan is… you thought CalSTRS 403(b) and 457(b) plans were DB.

    That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER and just reinforces my belief that you are a waterboy for the government workers.

    Well, you lease out your skull cavity as a mayo container for Wall Street, who make huge profits from DC plans… you fully support that.

    That has to be total bullshit. There are at least 216 Wall Street investment firms that manage the CalPERS fund. Their cut would be MUCH more than 0.5%. And that doesn’t even count the expense fees that CalPERS must pay on all their investment vehicles. I believe nothing you say.

    Prove it with numbers. I gave you my link to the numbers, you have nothing but your oral flatis, which tastes like champagne to you.

    Show me ONE corporate DC plan that is in financial trouble. Show me ONE corporate DC plan that is underfunded. Show me ONE DC plan that has caused a corporate bankrupcy.

    You can’t.

    Color Tile. Enron. Countrywide. Bear-Stearns.

    Since you wank on about DC plans, take a look at the Wall Street Journals writeup:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703959604576152792748707356.html?mod=ITP_pageone_0

    The typical household is $490,000 in arrears on their 401(k). Hmmm… 50 million households or so (at least) in the US… a deficit of…. $25 trillion dollars… hey that dwarfs anything in the public pension sector, even the totally unfunded military pensions (where you, BZ, totally support retirement at age 37). Gets to the level of the 2008 bailout liability (according to the Special Inspector General for TARP, Neil Barofsky).

    Quoting from the WSJ:

    “That leaves $39,465 needed from other sources. Most 401(k) accounts don’t come close to making up that gap.

    The median 401(k) plan held $149,400, including plans from previous jobs, according to the Center for Retirement Research. To figure the annual income from that, analysts typically look at what the family would get from a fixed annuity.

    That $149,400 would generate just $9,073 a year for a couple, according to New York Life Insurance Co., the leading provider of such annuities— less than one-quarter of the $39,465 needed.

    Just 8% of households approaching retirement have the $636,673 or more in their 401(k)s that would be needed to generate $39,465 a year.”

    It’s so easy to slap your opinions down, Spension.

    All you do is slap your monkey and brag about it, well, actually, you are so clueless you need your Mom to find your monkey for you so you can commence your private slapfest.

    Meanwhile, you’ve been flattened repeatedly into stiking 2-dimensional road kill by the facts.

  135. SeeSaw Says:

    DC plans lose and gain thousands of dollars over and over again, Beeze. My 457(b) has done that for years. Anyone with DC plan alone, would find it very hard to plan a budget.

  136. Kidding Me Says:

    I would really love to drink the Kool Aid that seesaw and spension seem to be consuming. Must be an awesome product that can transport you into lala land for such extended periods of time.
    On the other hand I am also reminded of the saying(and I paraphrase) – It is not possible to have a reasonable debate with anybody when the reasoning leads to a conclusion that is totally unacceptable.

  137. Kidding Me Says:

    CA is now a slow motion wreck headed the same way as Greece and so is IL. I do agree with an earlier statement in this thread though – that everybody is out to get their own piece of the pie, screw the rest of society so why would public sector workers be any different whether union or not. They have succeeded quite well for at least 3 decades but now the chickens are coming home to roost. Seesaw you are seriously delusional if you believe that Moonbeam’s proposal for more taxes will pass.

  138. SeeSaw Says:

    You may be the delusional one–either way, life will continue.

  139. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Color Tile, Enron, Countrywide Finance, Bear-Stearns – there are 4. You forget that companies often give their match in company stock and then go bankrupt.

    suspension, that is totally 100% FALSE, a lie, a whopper lie.

    Companies do NOT match a 401K in “company stock”, they make dollar $$$ for dollar $$$matches, usually with a 3% maximum limit.

    Some companies have stock options plans, very few today, that allow you to BUY STOCK with a company match (they match you one for one on every stock unit you buy), again with a limit of usually 3% of salary, but that is completely different from a $401K match, which is ALWAYS in cash, that is under federal law.

    Man, Beelz is right, you’re drinking the seesaw kool-aid.

  140. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Seesaw you are seriously delusional if you believe that Moonbeam’s proposal for more taxes will pass.
    ==
    DOA!

  141. Kidding Me Says:

    Spension you really are an idiot and like several have said are avoiding the heart of the matter. Beelzebub provided like he said a simple math example of why the CA db system is flawed and your response to that is further distraction. This debate is not an abstract debate about the benefit of db vs. dc. It about how phucked up CA’s current system is and the benefits promised. Get a hint from the the web address of this page. Whether 6 or 60 other pension systems are healthy is irrelevant, CA’s is broken and yes in large part because of lala land ratios such as 3%@50 that mofo politician parasites promised to the public sector workers that essentially bought said politicians. Were the voters stupid to not revolt earlier – YES absolutely but the revolt will most certainly come. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here but the principles of taxpayers are clear
    (1)We are not responsible for plugging the difference between projected benefits and actual benefits — YOU ARE
    (2)We are not responsible for providing for whatever age you live to — YOU ARE
    (3)It is not acceptable for total life compensation for a public sector worker to be higher than a public sector worker for comparable work.
    (4)When there is financial pain, it needs to be distributed across the board. Public sector workers seem to have an absurd belief that pay, benefits, insurance, cola, pension, retroactive pension benefits can only move in an upward direction.

  142. Beelzebub Says:

    “Color Tile, Enron, Countrywide Finance, Bear-Stearns – there are 4″

    Are you claiming that the reason those 4 companies went bankrupt was due to their 401-k’s or DC plans??? HAH! You need to educate yourself, pal. Those bankrupcies had NOTHING TO DO with their DC plans. I asked you to name ONE company that went bankrupt due to offering a DC plan. You can’t!!! HAH! But I can name several municipalities that went bankrupt due to DB pension plans as the PRIMARY cause!!!

    Stop twisting the facts and JUST ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, spension!!!

    “There are a great many public pension plans that are just fine in the US”

    The majority of DB pension plans are underfunded and in BIG BIG trouble. You cannot name ONE 401-k plan that is in trouble. The reason people get in trouble with 401-k plans is that they borrow from it prior to retirement or they do not contribute enough. All 401-k account holders should contribute 6% of their pay and with the 3% company match it would give them 9% total. At the end of a 30 year career that would compound out nicely – depending on their investment skills – and they would have close to a million bucks to retire on WITHOUT PUTTING THE TAXPAYER AT RISK!!!!

    “I gave you my link to the numbers….”

    Your numbers are as phony as Jenna Jameson’s boobs!!! How could you have an expense ration of 0.5% when CalPERS is paying off over 200 investment advisors PLUS all the fees on their funds and vehicle investments??? YOU ARE NUTS!!!

    “The typical household is $490,000 in arrears on their 401(k)”

    Where’d you pull that one out of??? Your butt??? The article said NOTHING of $490,000 in arrears. As I said before, a 401-k account holder should contribute 6% of income and with the 3% employer contribution gets 9%. Over 30 years with good investing one could accumulate close to $1M on a $70,000 salary.

    You want to stick the TAXPAYERS with the obligation of guaranteeing these government leeches with HUGE pension benefits. That MUST STOP!!! Gov employees deserve NOTHING more than a DC retirement plan JUST LIKE THE PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS WHO TAKE ALL THE RISK!!!

    You must be a union plant on these boards. Your fabrications rival theirs! All you want to do is suck more easy money from the taxpayers for GED gov employees who couldn’t qualify for a job in the private sector as toilet scrubbers! Yet they expect million dollar pensions with the taxpayer as the fall guy if the investment markets go south.

    Leeches, leeches, leeches!!!!!!!!!

  143. spension Says:

    Rex sez… Companies do NOT match a 401K in “company stock”, they make dollar $$$ for dollar $$$matches, usually with a 3% maximum limit.

    Read it and weep, Rex… Quote…

    The highly publicized case of financial mismanage- ment at Enron Corporation also had implications for the company’s 401(k) plan. The plan, which was invested largely in employer stock, declined significantly in value. The plan allowed participants to choose among several investment options for their own contributions, but required that all company matching contributions be invested in employer stock. The company did have a provision that al- lowed employees to switch investment vehicles, but company matching contributions could not be switched out of employer stock until an employee reached age 50.

    http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/11/art1full.pdf

  144. Kidding Me Says:

    Rex, there was previously a practice at some companies to provide the match in stock but that practice has now reduced with the stock market plunge of recent years. Countrywide was indeed matching with company stock. That said, spension is using his all too familiar tactic of distraction. Anecdotes make good story but are meaningless with broader stats. Spension is obviously not in agreement with the basic principle here – that employees whether they be public or private need to bear market risk AND that the days of your employer guaranteeing a cash flow post retirement are long gone for the private sector, they also need to disappear for the public sector.

  145. Beelzebub Says:

    “Spension is obviously not in agreement with the basic principle here – that employees whether they be public or private need to bear market risk AND that the days of your employer guaranteeing a cash flow post retirement are long gone for the private sector, they also need to disappear for the public sector”

    There ya go, Kidding Me!!! YOU GOT IT!!!

    Spension want a perpetual mommy and daddy to ensure that he will be taken care of in his old age, regardless of what the investment markets do. He wants a SAFETY NET provided by the TAXPAYERS. He does NOT WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF MANAGING HIS OWN FUTURE!!! He is promoting LEECHERY!!! He belongs to the FREE CHEESE CLUB…..GIMME…..GIMME…. GIMME MO OF DAT FREE CHEESE!!!!

  146. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Anyone with DC plan alone, would find it very hard to plan a budget.
    ==
    Anyone with a DB plan that could not pass their losses off onto the poor, like CalTURDS does, would also find it very hard to budget,

  147. spension Says:

    BZ sez… Are you claiming that the reason those 4 companies went bankrupt was due to their 401-k’s or DC plans???

    I’m saying that those companies did their 401k matching in company stock and then that stock lost >90% of its value. The 401k plans were decimated.

    You’ve changed your criteria, vacuum cranium. Here was the original criteria:

    Show me ONE 401-K plan in the nation that is in financial trouble or that is underfunded.

    I showed you 4.

    YOU LOSE, SUCKA!

    And name one municipality that went bankrupt with no contribution from its bond payments, bad financial loan decisions, etc; *only* due to pension obligations.

    The majority of DB pension plans are underfunded and in BIG BIG trouble.

    Prove it with numbers SUCKA…. give me a list of every DB pension plan in the country, your criteria for `trouble’ for each one. Anything less is phony flatis, SUCKA. You won’t cause you can’t even find your monkey to slap without your Mommy guiding your hand.

    Where’d you pull that one out of??? Your butt??? The article said NOTHING of $490,000 in arrears.

    As people who can read notice, the average balance is $149,400, and the total needed (according to the WSJ) is $636,673. $636,673-149,400=$487,273 or rounding to $490,000. Learn what a number means BZ… well, you never did understand the difference between a DB and DC plan in the first place.

    DB plans simply *REDUCE RISK*. They are simply more efficient. Want to see the figure again? Click on it and burn it into your memory and quit wacking your pud for you Mommy, BZ.

    If you argue for DC plans, you want $10-100 billion to go to the banksters on Wall Street. How much are they paying you to post here, BZ?

  148. SeeSaw Says:

    I don’t know how Rex or Kidding Me can interpret my posts as drinking kool aid. My posts deal with facts.

    Many coroporate employees, like Enron, used the matches, that the company gave them for their 401k’s, to purchase Enron stock. So what’s the difference. They still went bust.

    My 457(b) provider, NILEC, went bankrupt in the early 80’s. Our money was frozen for three years without interest. My current 457(b) has gained and lost thousands of dollars many times. It might contain x amount of dollars one quarter and be $10,000 less the next quarter, and make back $5000 the next quarter. This is not kool-aid drinking–DC plans are a good thing to have as a supplement to other retirement vehicles–they cannot be depended on as a sole source of retirement income. A middle-class employee would never be able to save enough money in a DC plan alone, to cover their basic living costs, in retirement.

  149. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Wow tha was weird, me spension and seesaw ALL posted our comments at the exact same time, 11:14 PM……..

  150. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I don’t know how Rex or Kidding Me can interpret my posts as drinking kool aid. My posts deal with facts.

    LOL….seesaw, all you do is post spin and propaganda, not a single fact gets mixed in.

  151. Kidding Me Says:

    Dunno about all public sector workers but certainly the ones on this thread are worse than parasites. Parasites are smart enough to only suck enough to keep the host organism alive, public sector parasites especially the Stockton ones have no such concern. Deis the mofo city mgr disses the insurance cos and states that they don’t care about anarchy on streets as long as the insurance cos are paid but makes no mention of the fact that the pensioners and Calpers viewpoint is exactly the same – they too do not give a rat’s ass about Stockton as long as their pension cash flow continues. The city can go into the toilet as long as the cash keeps coming in.

  152. SeeSaw Says:

    I don’t recall seeing anything on this forum about Spension having a DB pension–I think she said she has DC’s. Did you ever consider the possibility that Spension is a professional, financial analyst.

  153. spension Says:

    Kidding me… what a tortured tangle of illogic you present.

    You are arguing against all forms of smart financial management… the `lifetime benefit’ is actually a big money saver if managed right.

    Just imagine why we don’t have `defined contribution’ car insurance… imagine you coudn’t drive unless you saved up $500,000 to pay off the worst possible claim.

    And why shouldn’t you be responsible for all your own possible car accidents, instead of sponging off all the other premium payers?

    DB pensions are the same principle. You reduce risk by pooling. People who die earlier subsidize people who live a long time. Risk is reduced… the risk that you’ll outlive your savings.

    Yes it would be better if the private sector had not been so corrupt as to screw up their pooling system… annuities and private dB plans. The simple fact has been the public pension systems have been economical in their fees and management.

    And yes, benefits were raised way to high by politicians elected by voters. I for one have always advocated either significant reductions in payouts for existing pensioners and employees, which due to the legalities (not even a vote can get out of those contracts) must be done voluntarily by the people who get the payouts… or, failing that, Sovereign Default of the State of California.

  154. spension Says:

    I have DC plans. I’m not a public employee. It is because I’ve had to save so goll-darned much in my DC plans (over $1 million) that I learned about the benefits of DB plans. And frankly, I think the WSJ got it wrong… I think you need $2,000,000 in a DC plan to retire with $60,000/year. But only $1,000,000 would have had to go into a DB plan to retire with $60,000/year.

  155. Kidding Me Says:

    Seesaw you misrepresent again and that should be no surprise by now. 401k plans can swing up and down based on the choices the plan holder makes. Most 401k plans today have an option that is the equivalent of a money market account where you are taking on zero(or at least very close to zero) market risk. Regardless of above, it should not be the taxpayer’s burden to take on the responsibility for ensuring that you feel comfortable about planning for your retirement years.

    Spension you misrepresent too and again no surprise by now. The Wall St reported shortage even if your interpretation is corect(big if there, you have proven to have suboptimal math and comprehension skills) is irrelevant. The shortage there is not going to get plugged by anybody, the account holder will suffer whereas any shortage in db plans whether through sheer incompetence, theft, lying, stealing, market performance, etc is expected to be plugged by the taxpayer. You are comparing apples to oranges and that has been your theme throughout this thread. Wall St commissions is meaningless, as somebody else stated here, the combo of Calpers + outside consultants is costing you the equivalent of Wall St. Also part of the DB money is being managed by Wall St in case you did not know. Magic tooth fairies ain’t gonna produce the projected 7.5% ya know.

  156. Kidding Me Says:

    Spension, I think you know quite well that public sector worker are not going to voluntarily agree to reduction of current formulas. The choice has to be imposed or like you said the alternate is some kind of state level default. I will also presume that you are aware that the BK Code does not have a provision for a state default so once this issue reaches blowoff stage, we will I suspect see a magnified version of San Jose /San Diego. There will be a vote forcing down future benefits, public sector workers will revolt and take it to court and it will be decided at CA or USA Supreme Court level.

  157. Kidding Me Says:

    Spension I see that you and I are in agreement on several things regarding thcurrent broken state of affairs in CA, my apologies for being colorful, that is not my style. I have not looked deep into whether a db plan if structured properly can be more efficient than dc but I will take your word for it. Issue at hand which we both agree to is that db as currently structured in CA is hopelessly broken beyond repair. One non-math issue to consider no matter how a db is structured is moral hazard. If a db has an escape hatch of taxpayers being on the hook for plugging the diff between projected vs. actual benefits, I contend that over time, the db plan will always be more riskier for the taxpayer than a dc.

  158. spension Says:

    Well we all get frustrated. I get frustrated when simple math and known good practices get ignored. Seems like modern politics has lost all respect for numerical truth and relies more than ever on pushing emotional hot buttons.

    Yes public employees in California have been greedy… actually, the non-union ones (like University Administrators, City/County Administrators…) more than the union-ones. But for crisakes, greed is worshipped in America. Donald Trump and 1000’s of guys on Wall Street are deified for their greed.

    Smart sober numbers guys really can do a good job of swatting down the greedy. Gray Davis and the CA leg back in 1999 (Republicans too!) ignored their numbers guys and we got stuck with 3% at 50. But my conclusion is not to cave in and conclude that we can never restore rational thought.

  159. Kidding Me Says:

    Another thought between the db vs. dc debate is that in dc the money is well and truly yours to control and invest as you wish whereas in db the money is not yours and you are mercy to the solvency of the org when you retire. Granted public sector workers view the payout of the pension as an iron clad guarantee and will cry bloody murder should even a nickel be chopped off BUT I think it is inevitable that reform will come in that area. I see is as impossible for taxpayers to keep tolerating the current higher level of protection that is implied for public sector db plans. In that respect, a Stockton decision that will result in pension cuts(imo) is going to result in an earthquake in public sector pension politics.

  160. Beelzebub Says:

    “But for crisakes, greed is worshipped in America”

    Greed is one thing. Theft is quite another. And when you have literally MILLIONS of little parasites stealing BILLIONS from the taxpayers collectively, it destroys the fiscal solvency of municipal and state governments. All thieves should go to jail. The Wall Street thieves and the pension thieves. But since we no longer have ‘equality under the law’ anymore in America and selective anarchy rules – the productive get punished and the lawless parasites get rewarded. That is precisely why the empire is dying. The US Constitution is getting pissed on daily. Brace for chaos.

    And it’s not just the 3%@50 that screwed us. It’s the 2.7%@55. It’s the 2.5%@55. It’s even the 2%@55. Those are all food for the parasites. Flithy little leeches and parasites that eat away at the host and eventually destroy it.

  161. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    wow— alot of the same ol drivel from beezyboob and poodle….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  162. Beelzebub Says:

    I would never believe the annual reports, re: expenses, concocted by CalPERS with the help of Wall Street. Naturally they want to keep those numbers down not to upset the peasants.

    Do the numbers in annual reports show all fees, commissions and other explicit expenses? Or are they rolled into other deals that are left off the balance sheets? Wall Street banks are notorious for this. Creative accounting practices are widely known throughout these pension systems. But Spension won’t tell you this.

    If the pension funds went to straight index funds and cut out Wall Street investment advisors they would literally save billions each year. Studies have proven that. But ex-banksters working for the pension funds help their buddies in the industry. Birds of a feather………

    By and large, it has been shown that on average low-expensed index funds match the performance of managed funds across the board. Oh, you may find and exception of two if you are lucky and pick the right one…..but overall on average your money is going to grow just as fast (or slow) by sticking it into an index fund rather then have some clown managing it for you in a fund that buys and sells stock on a routine basis – thus incurring even greater costs.

    So Spension hasn’t done his research. He thinks the pension funds will suddenly reduce their formula’s to 1%@67!!! HAH! Talk about a dreamer. That would NEVER happen in the real world. NEVER! It would be the end of public unions if it did. Employees would refuse to contribute to them.The only thing that keeps them alive is their ability to bribe the politicians to steal from the taxpayers and give them what they want. We have seen that phenomenon in action from the lowest of municipal governments all the way to the governor’s office. So to say it doesn’t happen is denying reality.

    The only way to go is to ELIMINATE DB plans and replace them with DC plans that use index funds as their investment vehicles.

    Anything short of that is a big colossal FAIL!!!!

  163. spension Says:

    Sure, I totally appreciate that I am able to choose my own investments in my DC plans, and that the money is really there. It is a good part of DC. But their is a huge bad part too… that I have to plan to cover my survival until age 100. If everyone took this seriously (and, the WSJ says, most people of retirement age have only saved $149,400 when they need $636,673 in their DC plans). And I have to pay high fees. I should get out of my employer’s DC plan and into Vanguard… I think it is legal but I haven’t pushed hard enough. Fees are a huge, big deal, contrary to what many have said here… it is because your yearly return is only 5-10%, and if the fee is 2%, that takes a huge bite out of your return.

    I’m sorry, BZ, if you think CalPERS is lying on their financial reports, prove it. There published expense ratio is about 0.5%. But yes, in my universe, I’d turn the whole kit & caboodle over to Vanguard (but not Fidelity or Schwab).

    Government is always fraught with fraud. People sell municipal bonds for a road or a school and give the contract to their brother-in-law. Job hiring for police and fire is not truly merit-based…. relatives get a special deal. But if that makes solid honest people give up in disgust, they’ve won.

    DC plans were *never* intended to be the sole source of post-retirement income. Actually, my memory is that people were expected to have: 1)Social Security, particularly if the end up living beyond 85; 2)a DB plan that is ultra solid… invested carefully and efficiently and with benefits low enough to never cause our current political nightmare… a totally constant % of pay, like, 10% employer and 5% employee, or 8% employer and 4% employee, never changing so stock market crashes don’t cause a call for huge new contributions when the economy is trashed; 3)A DC plan that gives some exposure to the more volatile stock market and higher gains too, but never intended as the *sole* source of income in retirement.

    But, frankly, only 3) looks sorta solid; if you save for 3) in the future the US government will needs-test you and take away 1), and we’ve become so corrupt we can’t as a society and government manage 2) in a rational way anymore.

    But it doesn’t change the fact: well managed DB plans are most efficient. And there are hundreds of well managed public DB plans in the US… maybe even a few in California.

  164. Beelzebub Says:

    Oh, btw.

    If you think you’re going to vote your way out of this pension heist you are living is deep, deep denial.

    Congress has an approval rating of about 15%. I believe the State legislature has an approval rating in the single digits. Yet 95% of the incumbents keep getting reelected. heh. :D

    If you can’t read between the lines here you deserve to be swindled, lied to and extorted. heh. :D

    The only solution to the problem is a total reset. Incremental solutions haven’t worked in the past nor will they work in the future.

    If they freeze salaries they increase overtime. If they force the trough feeders to pay more in pension contributions they increase the taxpayer’s share of the medical expenses. So basically you are removing a dollar from one of their pockets and putting it back into another of their pockets. Don’t you understand the scam yet?

    Until pols get thrown in jail for taking bribes and lying – nothing really changes with the pension system. Until there is a total reset it’s business as usual. All you will see is fake reforms.

  165. Beelzebub Says:

    “Sure, I totally appreciate that I am able to choose my own investments in my DC plans, and that the money is really there. It is a good part of DC”

    It is the ONLY way to go. It puts the EMPLOYEE in charge of his money and removes using the taxpayer as a safety net. It is the only HONEST way of doing business.

    “And I have to pay high fees. I should get out of my employer’s DC plan and into Vanguard… I think it is legal but I haven’t pushed hard enough”

    Once you leave your employer you can roll your 401-k into a IRA at the broker of your choice.

    Most companies utilize a broker to manage their employee’s 401-k’s and negotiate low expense ratios with those investment firms. They can go with Vanguard, Fidelity, Schwab, ScottsTrade, etc… and have LOTS of negotiating power. Private companies are not like the government. Companies actually fight for nickles and dimes because they are using ‘other people’s money’ for their capital. Companies don’t use 216 different investment advisors (that get paids fees and commissions) to manage their 401-k programs. They use only ONE broker. So your claim that DC’s cost more than DB’s is simply unbelievable.

    “I’m sorry, BZ, if you think CalPERS is lying on their financial reports, prove it”

    That’s would be like proving that a cop lied on the witness stand. Even if you could prove it what difference would it make? That’s the problem here, spension. It’s like proving that Jon Corzine stole over $1B from customer segregated accounts @ MF Global. Wouldn’t matter. Either way he’s not going to get prosecuted because he happens to be Obama’s chief campaign fundraiser. Please wake up, Spension. You don’t examine all the angles. You only see the obvious without looking underneath the iceberg cap.

    “DC plans were *never* intended to be the sole source of post-retirement income”

    Okay. That’s fair enough. And I am willing to compromise here. Have them included in the SS program from this date forward. Whatever credits they’ve accumulated in the DB pension we’ll honor as long as there is money left to pay the benefits. Either that, or have the gov match 6% of the first 6% that the gov employee contributes to his 401-k equivalent. I am willing to work with you, spension. But we need to be honest and fair here. The bottom line is that the taxpayer should NOT have to bear the biggest burden of risk for the gov employees retirement. The employee should have to bear the biggest burden of risk by how much he voluntarily contributes and how he invests his money!!!

    “But it doesn’t change the fact: well managed DB plans are most efficient. And there are hundreds of well managed public DB plans in the US… maybe even a few in California”

    You and I will continue to disagree on that point. I will not compromise what my common sense says is not true.

  166. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    wow— alot of the same ol drivel from Teddy and his sock puppets….zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  167. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Did you ever consider the possibility that Spension is a professional, financial analyst.

    Why yes I did consider that seesaw, and it is about as likely as you being the Queen of England!

  168. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    …to be imposed or like you said the alternate is some kind of state level default. I will also presume that you are aware that the BK Code does not have a provision for a state default …

    States do not need any BK protection, they are immune for lawsuit in both state and federal courts-they can repudiate and default on ANY contract they want to and there is nothing me, you, public pensions Brown or anyone else can do about it.

    So there is no need for BK or any alternate-states already are driving the boat.

  169. Beelzebub Says:

    I must say that I do respect Spension for making a gallant effort at responding back to comments and actually responding to quotes. Even though he falls short it’s the effort that matters. For that he deserves respect. Most of the people on the other side run off when questioned or challenged. Spension hangs in there and that’s commendable. So even if we might disagree on the topic of discussion the honorable thing to do is show our respect for Spension and his tenacity.

    Oh, a little off topic. But have you heard that Julian Assange has been given sanctuary in the Ecuadorian embassy in England and that the brits have threatened to bust down the embassy doors to take Assange back into custody? Based on international treaties that have been in effect for decades, it seems to me that a brit invasion of a foreign embassy would be an act of war. Assange is simply a publisher. He did not steal any documents. What he did was not different that what Ellsberg did with the Pentagon Papers! And the swedish women who accused him of rape sought Assange out and co-habited with him VOLUNTARILY and allowed him to share their apartments and even sleep with them in their beds!!!!

    If the brits invade the Ecuadorian embassy then embassies all over the world are fair game. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander!

  170. Beelzebub Says:

    In the last year the US gave sanction to a Chinese dissident named ‘Chen’ accused of crimes by China in our US Embassy in Bejing, gave him asylum and escorted him from China to the US. Imagine if the Chinese would have blocked the US from providing sanction and safety to Chen? It would have been an act of war. Yet that is what the brits are doing to Assange and the Country of Ecuador. Strange how they make up the rules as they go along, eh? Treaties are fine as long as they support our interests. If they support the other guy’s interests they they are fair game to be broken. I guess might makes right. No wonder we are hated internationally!

  171. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    They- UK- are going after Wikiguy at the request of Sweden, which any circus chimp could see is just pretest for the US, as soon as Sweden gets Wikiguy they will hand him over to the US.

    Hey Obama, how about going after the Wall Street crooks, like Goldman Sucks and MF Global??? OH, wait, the OWN your sorry ass, my bad;

  172. Beelzebub Says:

    Rex, I watch Capital Accounts w/Lauren Lyster at Russian TV all the time. It’s ironic that we have to go to russian based media to get the truth anymore. Lauren is just as professional and articulate as any of the anchors at the major networks or cable channels.

    Dems and repubs alike are owned by the financial oligarchs. Although Romney won’t be much different from Obama I hope he wins since the thought of Obama being a lame duck scares the hell out of me.

    And you’re right. Sweden is just a proxy for the US and does as it’s told. So is the UK. Assange has the most powerful people in the world after him for publishing the damning data that came from our embassies. But what he did was no different from what Ellsberg, Woodward and Bernstein did. There’s a good reason why the journalists and investigative reporters in the US haven’t broken a story about corruption in politics or big business for decades – even though the information is plentiful. They see what is happening to Assange and say “I don’t want that to happen to me”.

    Land of the free and home of the brave my foot!

  173. Kidding Me Says:

    Might is right! This is as true in corrupt banana republics as it is for USA and some might even say that I was redundant in this sentence :)

    The Brits will grab hold of Assange, Ecuador is a nobody and can’t do squat about it. Rule of law, treaties, etc are all well and good as long as you are the beneficiary if not then strong arming is the order of the day.

  174. Kidding Me Says:

    Wait till the USA one fine day repudiates all external debt with an act of congress. That is when the real fireworks are sure to begin and we’ll be treated to a fine show before being annihilated!

  175. Beelzebub Says:

    “Wait till the USA one fine day repudiates all external debt with an act of congress”

    All the other nations really have to do is rescind the US dollar as the global reserve currency and we’re done. Nobody would have to fire a shot. And several of the other superpowers have held secret meetings already to discuss that very thing. Why do you think we are going after Iran? For their nuclear threat? HAH! Hooey! We are going after Iran because they sell their oil to nations in currencies other than the US dollar. That’s the ONLY reason we have them in our crosshairs. You never saw us threaten North Korea like we’ve threatened Iran, have ya? Ever ask yourself “Why?”. Hell, North Korea even attacked South Korea a couple years ago by sinking a S. Korean warship and killing about 4 dozen sailors – and them fired N. Korean missiles into S. Korean neighborhoods destroying lives and property. Did the US retaliate? Hell no! That’s because N. Korean owns nothing of value and can’t hurt us economically. They are just a minor inconvenience and if they kill some S. Koreans, so what? Even though we have a pact with S. Korea to protect them from attack!!! HAH! :D

    The whole thing’s a big joke. A big farce. Anybody with a brain can see it too!!! :D

  176. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    If China were smart they would STOP buying US T-bills, they own plenty already, only weaken their position and risk buying more-sooner or later the US will default, just as Vallejo, Stockton, San Bernardino, Central Falls, Pritchard AL and all the ones waiting in the wings did/will-like Los Angeles.

  177. Kidding Me Says:

    Beelzebub – why does the US maintain a military presence in S Korea? To ring fence China?

    Rex – China is buying T Bills to sustain their industry. I liken the situation to a marijuana dealer financing an addict to ensure that there’s enough cash flow and demand to ensure that the marijuana farms thrive and grow. They are certainly not buying our debt due to philanthropic concerns.

  178. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Well, China is not going to sustain any industry after the US defaults on that debt.

  179. Beelzebub Says:

    I noticed that Israel is beating the war drums as the American elections approach. I predicted that Israel would attack Iran prior to the elections. If things go well Obama will take credit. If things go badly he will disavow all knowledge. I’d say there is a 70% chance we will see an attack on Iran’s underground nuclear site in the next 6 weeks. Americans love war because we’ve never had to fight one on our soil for well over a century now. War is great when someone else is getting attacked. It’s not so fun when there are explosions in your own neighborhood though. We’re damn lucky we’re separated from most of the world by 2 oceans. But intercontinental ballistic missiles have leveled the playing field in the last 50 years. We’d better watch our P’s and Q’s. We’re still the big dog on the block – but does it really matter if a nation owns 6000 nuclear warheads or only 300? Not really. All it takes is 5 or 6 hits to ruin your day.

  180. Captain Says:

    .
    In a stunt that would make South American strongman Hugo Chavez proud, the imperious California Public Employees Retirement System (“CalPERS”) and the bankrupt City of Stockton conspired to give an absolute preference to Stockton’s $147 million pension obligation ($245 million over the next ten years) to CalPERS over Stockton’s remaining creditors who are owed an additional $550 million.

    But this sweetheart deal where bondholders and other creditors are treated like dirt will have major ramifications in the markets for California bonds and notes as credit rating agencies will lower their ratings and investors will require greater security and significantly higher rates of returns on these higher risk investments.

    Stockton claims that the City has already made numerous sacrifices (layoffs, reduction of vital services) and that this arrangement with CalPERS is necessary to maintain the “basic health and safety of the community.”

    CalPERS asserts the pension rights of public employees are “constitutionally protected” and have a “priority over other creditors, including bondholders.”

    But not of all of the creditors agree with this underhanded deal…

    this unsavory episode involving Stockton’s bankruptcy and its associated backlash is minor compared to

    the devastation caused by CalPERS

    and its persistence in relying on overly optimistic investment rate assumptions. This scam that has allowed governments throughout the State to underfund their overly generous pension plans…

    .http://www.citywatchla.com/lead-stories/3611-calpers-thuggery-highlights-pension-scam

    .

    .

    CalPERS Thuggery Highlights Pension Scam

  181. Beelzebub Says:

    “CalPERS asserts the pension rights of public employees are “constitutionally protected” and have a “priority over other creditors, including bondholders.”

    They can only pull this crap a couple times until the markets crash. Obama did the same thing over at GM. He sacrificed the secured bondholders who were supposed to be FIRST IN LINE following bankrupcy on asset claims to save the UAW. I dare Stockton to pull this crap. People will yank their money out of the municpal bond market so quickly that it’ll make your head spin in circles like Linda Blair’s in the Exorcist. NOBODY will invest in the municipalties. Pension holders should be treated just like regular stockholders when a company goes under. They lose it all. BY RULE OF LAW secured bondholders ALWAY have the first crack at any available assets. If we are not going to follow RULE OF LAW then we are no damn better than a banana republic and the chickens will come home to roost. You cannot make up the rules as you go along in a 1st world nation that is supposed to be a contitutional republic. You must FOLLOW THE RULES – even if they don’t go in your favor. Once you start IGNORING RULE OF LAW the empire is well on it’s way to collapse. Just ask Rome.

  182. spension Says:

    Neil Barofsky in the RT is the one who, as Special Inspector General for TARP, said the total liability of the late 2008 Wall Street bailouts is above $20 trillion… in part because all the unwinding of the complex securities hasn’t and won’t happen fast.

    I think the letter of the law puts pension holders pretty high in the line for their payouts, BZ, whatever you think `should’ happen. Politically, zeroing out a 90-year-old female teacher who gets $40,000 a year from CalSTRS does not seem me to be superior to giving a haircut to the same Wall Street guys who got trillions in the WS bailout and who hold CA bonds.

    But certainly a well-thought out haircut to pensioners who make >2%/year of service *OR* over $100,000 is something I advocate for sure, while simultaneously giving a haircut to CA bond holders too.

    Having said all that, I don’t get a public pension and I hold a fair sum in CA munis. I’m hurt way more by muni haircut.

  183. Beelzebub Says:

    “I think the letter of the law puts pension holders pretty high in the line for their payouts, BZ, whatever you think `should’ happen. Politically, zeroing out a 90-year-old female teacher who gets $40,000 a year from CalSTRS does not seem me to be superior to giving a haircut to the same Wall Street guys who got trillions in the WS bailout and who hold CA bonds”

    I don’t really give a damn about what you think is more morally superior, Mr. Warm and Fuzzy. I am referring to the RULE OF LAW and there are NO CREDITORS in a bankrupcy matter that are higher on the totem pole than SECURED BONDHOLDERS when it comes to claims on assets when an entity goes under. NONE!!!!

    Now don’t make me throw proof sources in your face and make you look like an idiot.

    Better for you just to back off and remain silent.

  184. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    beezyboob—-with posts like the one above– you remain a clown.

  185. Beelzebub Says:

    “beezyboob—-with posts like the one above– you remain a clown”

    This is by rule of law, dumbass:

    Municipal Bonds: Many municipal bonds are legally attached to a specified revenue stream such as highway or bridge tolls, user fees or taxes. In the case of Chapter 9 reorganization, these bonds and their revenue streams are held separate from the general creditors and assets to be liquidated. Revenue bonds and tax anticipation bonds pay the bondholders as stipulated in the bond indentures”

    http://www.ehow.com/info_8779953_bondholders-vs-labor-bankruptcy.html

    Read more: Bondholders vs. Labor in a Bankruptcy | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_8779953_bondholders-vs-labor-bankruptcy.html#ixzz23pKo5KQz

  186. Beelzebub Says:

    FaceBook down to about $19/share.

    I hope it goes to $0.

    Think of all the dopes who bought @ $38/share at the opening day frenzy.

    Boy, they got their butts handed to them, huh??? :D

  187. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    , zeroing out a 90-year-old female teacher who gets $40,000 a year from CalSTRS does not seem me to be superior to giving a haircut to the same Wall Street guys who got trillions in the WS bailout and who hold CA bonds

    Leave it to spension to spin the FACTS.

    The facts are that EVERYONE should be treated the SAME in BK, no one is getting “zeroed out”-well except that CalTURDS was trying to “zero out” eveyuone but THESELVES in Stockton (which they did do in Vallejo).

    And yes, a GED cop taking a 75% haircut on a $204K pension he didn’t pay for nor earn, where he at MOST only contributed 1% or 2% to is A-OK with me.

    Man spension, you are dumber than a bag of rocks..

  188. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    CalPERS asserts the pension rights of public employees are “constitutionally protected” and have a “priority over other creditors, including bondholders.”

    CalTURDS also claimed the SB 400 wouldn’t cost anything.

    CALTURDS claims mean nothing, they carry NO legal authority in a federal court, nor does a state law. Under the Supremacy Clause state law is subordinate to federal law.

  189. Beelzebub Says:

    Rex, in a corporate bankrupcy all employees lose their pensions.

    The same should hold true in a government Chapter 9. All employees under the auspices of that government entitity should lose their pensions.

    This is what I refer to as ‘selective enforcement’ of the laws. Two sets. One for us. One for them. Banana republic.

    In municipal bankrupcies (Chap 9) the SECURED BONDHOLDERS should receive FIRST PROTECTIONS and CLAIMS ON ASSETS. Pension holders should be LAST IN LINE – just like they are supposed to be in corporate America!!!

    I linked a proof source to that effect. Spension and Teddy never replied. I expect that from Teddy but not from Spension.

  190. spension Says:

    Sorry, US States can not go bankrupt. That is why they are called `States’, in the sense of their financial obligations they resemble a country more than a business. Municipalities definitely resemble a business, and I guess Counties do to… good old Orange County, that rightwing bastion, went bankrupt a few years ago.

    It is `Sovereign Default’, and as far as I know, bondholders have no special rank w/r to claims in an SD, nor do pensioners. There have been a handful of Sovereign Defaults in US history, and bondholders did get haircuts in them.

    A State defaulting is more like a country defaulting, and I don’t think the US Constitution is very clear on what happens next. I think Rex is right. In the end a massive shoving match between all interested parties would go on.

    I definitely would cut bondholders and pensioners (and people who did work for the State on credit) by the same %, but I would not distribute the cuts in pensions equally… people who had a lot of service years but low pensions (say below $50K and >30 service years) should get cut least… a UC administrator with a $200K pension and only 10 service years (like their president now) should get cut the most.

    But anyone who argues bondholders (and I hold CA munis) are a completely privileged class has to face that fact that munis are often held by the same entities that crashed the US economy. I don’t see how you guys could love them so much.

    Mr. Warm and Fuzzy? Got the gender mixed up BZ, but that is your typical carelessness.

  191. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Sorry, US States can not go bankrupt.

    And why on earth would state NEED to go bankrupt?? When they cannot be sued in state or federal court???????

    How many times do I need to tell you state chumps this fact????????

  192. Beelzebub Says:

    “Sorry, US States can not go bankrupt”

    Stockton is not a state, genius. If corporate employees lose their pensions when their corporation goes bankrupt then why shouldn’t city workers lose their pensions when their city goes bankrupt? Aren’t you an advocate of ‘equality under the law’? Or are you an advocate for ‘selective enforcement under the law’? Which is it, maam?

    States can go into recievership and be forced to pay off their creditors with whatever assets are available.

    Secured bondholders should always be first in line. Pensioniers should be amongst the last in line.

    “In the end a massive shoving match between all interested parties would go on”

    No. The law is clear. That’s why we have bankruptcy laws – so we know where the money gets distributed after the bankruptcy is adjudicated. There should be no wavering. The law is the law. Either you are an advocate of the law or you are an advocate of chaos. Which is it in your case, maam??

    “I definitely would cut bondholders and pensioners (and people who did work for the State on credit) by the same %…”

    We don’t care what YOU would do. What YOU would do is irrelevant. It matters only what the LAW dictates. And the LAW is clear. Secured bondholders are first in line.

    In corporations the employees LOSE their pension during a corporate bankruptcy. Why should municipal workers be granted special privileges??? Screw them.

    “But anyone who argues bondholders (and I hold CA munis) are a completely privileged class has to face that fact that munis are often held by the same entities that crashed the US economy”

    Speculation. Alot of individuals hold muni bonds. Billions worth of them.

    But it doens’t matter who holds them. Irrelevant. It matter what the LAW says. Otherwise we live in a fricken banana republic – and it appears that YOU advocate such a system. You want to change the LAW as you go along – depending upon who the LAW happens to support or disenfrachise. You don’t want a constitutional republic. You want selective anarchy. Be honest.

  193. SeeSaw Says:

    From the article Beeze links:

    “Regardless of the APR, the outcome of bankruptcy for bondholders and labor can be unpredictable, because the court makes the final decision based on negotiation.”

  194. Beelzebub Says:

    “From the article Beeze links:

    “Regardless of the APR, the outcome of bankruptcy for bondholders and labor can be unpredictable, because the court makes the final decision based on negotiation.”

    You still don’t get it, do you Seesaw.

    The LAW is very clear about the distribution of assets following a Chapter 9 bankruptcy. That is why we have LAWS, Seesaw. So people know what to do once a bankruptcy is filed, dear.

    And the LAW states that secured muni bondholders are FIRST IN LINE when it comes to having their ASSET PROTECTED. READ MY LINK AND REVIEW THE QUOTE listed in my 8/17 5:53pm post!!!

    When secured bondholders are placed in the middle or the back of the line in bankruptcy proceedings the LAW has been VIOLATED regardless of what you’re told.

    Once again, Seesaw – WHEN CORPORATIONS GO UNDER THE EMPOLYEES LOSE THEIR VESTED PENSIONS – ALL OF IT!!!!

    Why should you gov trough feeders be treated any differently than private sector workers when it comes to municipal bankruptcies??? DO YOU THINK YOUR CRAP DOESN’T STINK OR SOMETHING?

    Grow up!!! Be genuine for once. Stop skewing your comments to protect your favored interests. BE OBJECTIVE FOR CHRIST SAKES!!!

  195. spension Says:

    Last time I checked, this blog was called `Calpensions’, about CalPERS, CalSTRS, etc, which are *California State Obligations*.

    And that is what I’m talking about, and is what the general conversation is, after all about.

  196. spension Says:

    If California doesn’t have the money to meet its obligations, and defaults, that is a `Sovereign Default’. California doesn’t control the money supply… can’t print $ to pay people, like the US… one power California does not have. So they decide to Default, they are most certainly not bound by Bankruptcy law, and there is no obvious order to the meeting of obligations. A giant shoving match will ensue, which will be very chaotic. I don’t think anyone really knows what will happen… surely there would be many appeals to CA and US supreme courts, calls for bailouts from Congress (which can print money).

    As for Stockton, everyone will have their day in court, from Bond insurers to bond holders and public pensioners. I don’t think anyone here knows enough to predict the outcome… certainly BZ has no record of accuracy in ANYTHING (couldn’t tell CalSTRS DC plans from DB plans, after all; didn’t know that a number of private DC plans had crashed, etc).

    So, anything BZ posts on bankruptcy is empty noise, posted with the usual vitriol. Better BZ to impress people with your silence… when you post you remove all doubt that you are an imbecile.

  197. SeeSaw Says:

    Well, from what I interpret, the LAW allows the courts to make the decisions, through negotiations. I get no satisfaction from seeing people lose their money and their livelihoods. It wouldn’t matter whether I am personally stable or not. My family and friends are my favored interests, and most of them are in the private sector.

  198. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I don’t think anyone here knows enough to predict the outcome…

    Actually I do know enough to predict the outcome, and the outcome will be that CalTURDS pensioners take a haircut like everyone else will. Just as surely as the sun rises.

  199. Beelzebub Says:

    ” I don’t think anyone really knows what will happen… surely there would be many appeals to CA and US supreme courts, calls for bailouts from Congress (which can print money)”

    Based on what I’ve observed in the last 5 years I can definitely tell you what will happen. The special interest(s) that fund the largest bribes will win. Rule of Law in America has gone by the wayside, unless it happens to be the law as applied to the peasants and to the little people. In those instances it is applied vigorously and to it’s full letter!!! This is what I’ve been complaining about on these boards for the last 5 years. We are nothing more than a damn banana republic that does NOT operate under the premise of “consent by the governed” anymore!!! We have rulers. We have oligarchs. We have owners. We have dictators who use executive powers to get whatever they want, thus bypassing congress or a vote of the people. Had the people voted on TARP it would have been defeated by a 90% to 10% margin!!! And you idiots are playing right into their hands!!! SHAME ON YOU!!! You are willing to sell your nation and future generations right down the river for your greedy and selfish purposes!!! IMO you are the lower form of life on the bottom of the scum bucket!!! You only care about what’s in it for YOU – and to hell with the large, large majority of the others!!!

    “So, anything BZ posts on bankruptcy is empty noise, posted with the usual vitriol”

    Naturally you are deafly silent on why gov pension holders retain their pensions in a gov (state/municipal) bankruptcy while private sector pension holders get wiped out during a corporate bankruptcy. You know it’s incredibly unfair and unjust – but you will not acknowledge it because you are a watergirl and shoeshine girl for the public trough feeders. Just admit it. ;)

  200. SeeSaw Says:

    Just like in the past, Rex. The sun always rises, but none of your predictions ever came true. I’ll let you know when CalPERS informs me it is cutting my pension–if I am not dead first.

  201. SeeSaw Says:

    Its the corporations that are unfair and unjust, Beeze. When they go broke, the workers lose everything, but the CEO usually escapes with a few million. Our government allows them to send all their customer-service jobs offshore to their call centers, while the US workers are drawing unemployment compensation. Why not criticize the corporations for what they do to the workers–that’s not fair is it?

  202. spension Says:

    Naturally you are deafly silent on why gov pension holders retain their pensions in a gov (state/municipal) bankruptcy while private sector pension holders get wiped out during a corporate bankruptcy.

    Deafly silent? Maybe Deathly Silent. In any case, I’ll bet some post-employment benefits get totally respected during private bankruptcy, like, say, those golden parachutes of the top brass.

    And as far as I know a bunch of private bankruptcies have ended up getting covered by the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation… not total wipe out at all, assuming the private entity paid their premiums. Some religious non-profits have done total wipeouts. And the complaints that GM pensioners got way better treatment than GM Bondholder is valid, IMO, I would have cut them all by the same %.

    And I think in California some pretty strong laws protect both pensioners and senior bond holders. If a default starts at the State level, I dunno who wins, but I’d cut everybody by the same % and then distribute the pension cuts more to the richer pensioners (judged by the payout).

  203. Beelzebub Says:

    “Why not criticize the corporations for what they do to the workers–that’s not fair is it?”

    That’s not recent bankruptcy law, Seesaw. That has been on the books for many many many decades. So it is NOT unjust. It is part and parcel of the American legal system and always has been!!! I am arguing for “EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW”. You trough feeders should not get special privileges when it comes to YOUR public employers defaulting or going bankrupt. YOU TOO SHOULD LOSE YOUR DAMN PENSIONS. But you would NEVER argue for “EQUALITY UNDER THE LAW” when it would disfavor you. You are disingenuous. That is why I never consider your opinions as being authenic or honest. You always favor the home team. And IMO that’s deceitful!!!

  204. Beelzebub Says:

    “In any case, I’ll bet some post-employment benefits get totally respected during private bankruptcy, like, say, those golden parachutes of the top brass”

    There you go again. Circumventing my argument. You know I am referring to the RANK and FILE and not the top CEO’s.

    And, yes, when private companies go bankrupt their employees usually lose everything. Ask the airline employees associations if you question that. Ask the Enron RANK and FILE. Oh, you can probably nitpick and find an exception if you look hard enough.

    The FACT remains that private sector workers get SCREWED if their companies go bankrupt while public sector workers are thrown a lifeline in the event of a municipal bankruptcy.

    America was designed on the basis of FAIR PRACTICES. But you waterboys and watergirls couldn’t give a damn about FAIRNESS. You want the HOME TEAM protected at all costs – even if it mean “INEQUALITY UNDER THE LAW”.

    Shameful. You are national disgraces!

  205. SeeSaw Says:

    According to the article you linked, we have to wait and see what the Courts decide. That would be the LAW in action.

    My former employer is not bankrupt–it does not give uncapped vacation and 100% sick leave payouts. But, as the result of the abolishment of Redevelopment, it has had to layoff several of my former colleagues–a tragedy in my eyes.

  206. Beelzebub Says:

    “According to the article you linked, we have to wait and see what the Courts decide. That would be the LAW in action”

    That is such a stupid comment, Seesaw. Judges don’t make up the law as they go along. They FOLLOW the law as written. At least that’s the way it’s supposed to work. If judges just made up the law we could throw all the legal precedent that we’ve accumulated over the history of the republic away. Don’t make absurd comments, Seesaw. Or at least try not to. I know it’s difficult for you.

    “But, as the result of the abolishment of Redevelopment, it has had to layoff several of my former colleagues–a tragedy in my eyes”

    Oh, so now you’re a redevelopment proponent???

    I thought you hated big business? heh. ;)

    Oh I forgot….when you or yours happens to BENEFIT from big business activity then you like them. heh. :)

    Remove shoe from mouth, seesaw!!! :D

  207. Beelzebub Says:

    “Deafly silent? Maybe Deathly Silent”

    “Deafly silent” is a very legitimate saying, spension. Google it, dear.

    See, you learned something else from me today! ;)

  208. SeeSaw Says:

    If they follow the law as it is written–then, according to the article, the court will decide, through negotiation, how the bankrupt entity’s available monies are to be distributed. So, there is nothing stupid about my intrepretation of what is printed in the article–THAT YOU HAVE LINKED!

  209. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    seesaw, the BK is not done through “negotiation”, the JUDGE will DECIDE who gets what, and how much.

  210. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    seesaw, muni’s are not going BK because of the loss of RDA. Dorry, totally false. R

    DA’s were always a scam, a slush fund for muni’s to bestow riches ($$$) on local, well connected developers-I saw this happen over and over and over again with RDA money. What was once a great idea-to give extra $$ to “blighted” areas turned onto a fraud and scam, to the point that Coronado CA and Bel Air CA, two of the richest suburbs in the USA, were considered “blighted”.

  211. SeeSaw Says:

    Have you seen a comment from me anywhere that I have said I hated big business? I don’t paint all private business with the same brush, like you do with the public sector. I said I hated what those corporations did to the workers in those instances, where they laid off all their workers and set up call centers offshore. The big corporations who have decimated the lives of millions of workers, in that way, do not get a pass. That doesn’t erase the need for businesses. Redevelopment was a partnership between public entities and businesses, both big and small, by the way. Something that was in existence for 50 years, taken away with a flick of the State’s finger. Yes, a tragedy for thousands of workers in CA, both public and private. I am a people lover–I want everyone to be stable. These are values that you will never be able to take away from me. Have you always been so hostile, toward people you have never met, just because they dare to have opinions opposing your’s!

  212. SeeSaw Says:

    Rex, the article says that the Court will decide who gets priority in the bankruptcy, through negotiation. You obviously did not read the link. Why don’t you do that.

  213. spension Says:

    Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation. google that, BZ.

  214. spension Says:

    Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, actually, BZ, Rex, etc. Private DB pensions got insured long ago. Public ones are not.

  215. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Wrong again seesaw, BK issues are not “negotiated” they are questions of law decided by a judge. Why must I school you so much?

  216. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    bRedevelopment was a partnership between public entities and businesses, both big and small, by the way

    Wrong yet again seesaw. Redevelopment was a scam for gov to give $$$ to well connected developers, and they were never “small”, they were all big developers, usually local, who would get huge breaks at taxpayer expense.

  217. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, actually, BZ, Rex, etc. Private DB pensions got insured long ago. Public ones are not.

    spension, you are the biggest fool on the board. The PBGC is underfunded by $23 BILLION, and they do not “insure” pensions for the private sector. They back stop a SMALL portion of pensions from private companies that have gone BK, or unloaded the costly pensions on the taxpayers like the major airlines did. They CANNOT collect anything before age 55, and if they do start at age 55 it is $15K per year MAX, if they wait until age 65 it is $54K MAXIMUM no matter what they were supposed to get-so all those airline pilots who had $100K pension at age 60 took 50% haircuts and 5 years of longer working to get anything out of the PBGC. That is not insurance.

    You have been schooled too spension.

  218. Beelzebub Says:

    When I was a kid I remember when pensions were common for rank and file private sector workers. Factory workers, machinists, insurance salesmen, the milkman (who delivered milk and eggs to individual homes), department store clerks, railroad workers, bank employees, etc… all got some sort of pension. Now it’s all gone. Companies could no longer afford it and stay in business – with global competition. But the government never caught up with the private sector. Since they subsist on other people’s money and no one is held financially accountable for their balance sheets – they can waste as much money as they want and stay in business. Unfortunately the honeymoon is over – even for the government workers. They are learning about economics the hard way. It won’t be pretty from here on in.

  219. SeeSaw Says:

    I have seen the improvements that have come about through Redevelopment that would not have happened without the partnerships, Rex. Taxpayers–that’s right. If the citizens did not want to see their areas rot from lack of renovation there was Redevelopment. So developers and companies benefitted and people got jobs–that’s right. You would not have downtown LA right now without Redevelopment–it would still be Bunker Hill with old houses falling down–there would be no Costco down the street from me instead of the former strip mall that was falling apart. You certainly know nothing at Redevelopment Rex. Maybe you need a few classes.

  220. SeeSaw Says:

    Not making sense Beeze. Why do you want to complete the devastation? My spouse was a union carpenter with a pension, and the illegals came. The developers did not hire them in place of the legal workers because they couldn’t afford the legal workers–they hired them because they would work for much less, and the buildiers could pocket more profit. The prices of the houses never went down because the illegals were working for peanuts. The builders were just pocketing more. That’s the way it is with the corporations now. They can’t take care of the workers properly because they have to put more in the pockets of the shareholders–or they won’t get their own golden parachutes.

  221. Beelzebub Says:

    “My spouse was a union carpenter with a pension, and the illegals came”

    That’s what happens when ‘Rule of Law’ is crapped on, Seesaw. The government refused to enforce the law and deport the illegals. And the illegals were allowed to take of the construction industry. Capitalists are mostly crooks, Seesaw. We expect that from capitalists. That’s why we have government. To control their natural impulse to make more money by illegal means. But government FAILED to do their job. And your husband got screwed, dear. That is the long and short of it.

    “They can’t take care of the workers properly because they have to put more in the pockets of the shareholders–or they won’t get their own golden parachutes”

    That’s not the whole story, Seesaw. And you know it. America is not the same economic powerhouse we were in 1950. We helped destroy most of our economic competition in WW2. So we grew incredibly fast for many years afterwards. Unless we destroy the industrial capacity in China, India, Singapore and the other emerging nations – as well as in Europe – we are not going to see 5% growth rates. It’s a completely different world today economically. It would be pretty hard to start WW3 without it going nuclear in 2012.

    In addition to that, our own politicians are hurting the middle class by offshoring jobs and saturating America with indigent foreginers.
    When AB 1081 passes in the Ca legislature – it’s over. We become a sanctuary state. The mechanics of the invasion will be complete.

    We just don’t have the economic growth to be able to afford to finance pensions, seesaw. We can’t do it. And it’s not fair when one segment of our society thinks that they can ignore the laws of economics at the expense of the rest of us who are forced to play by the rules.

  222. spension Says:

    BZ said And, yes, when private companies go bankrupt their employees usually lose everything.

    while Rex said: …they wait until age 65 it is $54K MAXIMUM no matter what they were supposed to get

    I say: $54K/year maximum is not `losing everything’. Providing $54K/year is a form of insurance…. for which the PBGC collects premiums from private industry. Also it takes over the pension funds of bankrupt companies.

    Me schooled? Not at all. I was the one who brought up the PBGC, not BZ and Rex… all we got from you guys was some kind of theology that private pension systems in the US had no safety net whatsoever.

    Yup, the PBGC has a big deficit, no doubt it will be bailed out by the taxpayer.

    The haircuts that PBGC are not a bad model for preparing for California Sovereign Default. I’d just give all other CA debt holders a similar haircut. Everybody should lose, bondholders, contractors owed money from the state, pensioners, etc…. no `protected classes’.

  223. SeeSaw Says:

    I have heard many addresses by experts on the CA pension crisis. None have mentioned the possibility of a sovereign default. I don’t think its necessary to scare the people in CA with such a projection, just because it happened a hundred years ago.

  224. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Not making sense Breeze. Why do you want to complete the devastation? My spouse was a union carpenter with a pension, and the illegals came. The developers did not hire them in place of the legal workers because they couldn’t afford the legal workers–they hired them because they would work for much less, and the builders could pocket more profit. The prices of the houses never went down because the illegals were working for peanuts. The builders were just pocketing more. That’s the way it is with the corporations now.
    Wow seesaw, you just described redevelopment.

    BTW seesaw, RDAs don’t do jack to redevelop anything. The areas you speak of like Bunkers hIll, Downtown LA, etc, they would have ALL be redeveloped without RDAs. RDAs were not redeveloping “blighted” areas, they were redeveloping ANY area and getting big fat tax breaks for it-like you said in your comment here.

    RDAs were and are scams, and you keep conveniently leaving off the fact that RDA’s can get anything labeled as “blight” including Bel Air and Coronado, jeezeeeee what we we do without redeveloping those billionaires houses and neighborhoods!!!!!

    Go home seesaw, RDAs are scams, glad they got slammed.

  225. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Me schooled? Not at all.

    I have schooled you like the chump you are spension. The PBGC is $23 BILLION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! deficit, seems you forgot that little fact.

  226. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    poodie—- spension ha schooled you and the boob so long i think you each earned a degree!

  227. Beelzebub Says:

    Judge Napolitano’s recent take on the 2012 presidential election and Obamacare.

    Very interesting opinion on the SCOTUS and, in particular, Justice Roberts and the damage that the Obamacare ruling had on American freedom.

  228. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Love the judge Beelz, and while I agree with him most of the time, not this time. We have Obamacare, it is on the race track with the engine running, we owe it to the country to give it a test drive…..if we crash and burn we can repeal it. Try it out is my take on it.

  229. Kidding Me Says:

    PBGC for private sector is not the same as taxpayer funded bailout of public sector pensions. The reference made to airline workers taking massive pension cuts is valid. PBGC being bailed out by taxpayers is possible but speculative at best. What is fact and not opinion is that public sector workers do not currently believe that they are subject to the same rules as pensions for private sector workers. Forget 50% haircuts, public sector pigs in CA(San Jose, San Diego, Stockton) are unwilling to entertain any kind of cut no matter the solvency of the entity providing the pension. So we have the ludicrous situations of SJ, SD unions going to court even when the voters have spoken.

  230. Beelzebub Says:

    I am surprised on your take on “Obamacare”, rex.

    I am surprised that you can’t see that Obamacare is further evidence of the merger or state and corporate powers where the state becomes the ‘enforcer’ ensuring a consistent generous flow of additional revenue to the corporate ‘oligarchs’. In fact, 100’s of billions in extra revenue annually. It does NOTHING to help the middle class by increasing our medical insurance premiiums. In fct, projections are that insurance premiums will continue to rise at a 9% annual clip. It does NOTHING to stop the illegal leeches from walking into any ER and getting soup to nuts medical care on the legal taxpayer’s dime while the legal taxpayer is forced to buy his own insurance or face stiff financial penalties. Obamacare makes a bad situation even worse and even destroys our freedoms in the process, as the good Judge pointed out.

    I will have to disagree with you on this one, rex.

  231. Beelzebub Says:

    Obama fooled you once, rex.

    Don’t let him do it again.

  232. Kidding Me Says:

    So when public sector workers face the prospect of pension cuts, out come all the toys — crime will increase, lawsuits, screw the bond holders my needs and rights are greater, you are condemning us to die you heartless voter bastards, etc. In this respect the SJ and SD votes will likely be a game changer. Things have gotta be in the toilet when a Democratic SJ mayor was actually pushing heavily for benefit cuts.

  233. Kidding Me Says:

    Beelzebub I don’t think a single bill or act can possibly solve the hole we are in nationally. The adjustment process will take several years. While there’s certainly imperfections in Obamacare, I think in the long run as long as it helps stabilize or even reduce the national debt(or even the rate of growth of the debt) Obamacare should be judged a success. I don’t claim to have any expertise in doing the 10 year numerical analysis(Obamacare is extremely complicated and has many facets to it) but at this point, I will hope that 10 years from now we are in better shape wrt to the debt as opposed to doing nothing.

    On a separate topic, the Repub proposal is also to cut Medicare anyway but just in a different fashion so if both national parties are on the path to Medicare cuts then that is the path we will be on. I concluded several years back that by the time I reach anywhere near retirement, govt will be sure to hose me and my generation anyway so current repub proposal to screw anybody below 55 does not come as a shock to me.

  234. Beelzebub Says:

    Obama makes Jerry Clown look like an amateur. A mere piker. Obama is the personification of deceit and aggrandized power. If Obama gets a 2nd term – mark my words – this nation is done. My God. Look at how he’s pissed on the US Constitution and our freedoms in his 1st term. You think that will improve once he becomes a lame duck? Please, folks. Open up your eyes!

  235. Kidding Me Says:

    Well we are well beyond a choice of good and bad between our presidential candidates. Both parties are filled with crooks in for it themselves and their campaign contributors. The choice sadly is between who will do the least amount of damage and so we get to pick which poison we want. Oversimplifying it – lose your money or lose your liberties :)

  236. Beelzebub Says:

    “I think in the long run as long as it helps stabilize or even reduce the national debt(or even the rate of growth of the debt) Obamacare should be judged a success”

    You are in total denial, man.

    There is NO evidence that Obamacare will slow the rate of growth in health care spending. It will only SHIFT the costs to the PRODUCTIVE MIDDLE CLASS furthering it’s decline.

    You have bought into the “hope and change” bullshit, my friend. One would think that after 3.5 years that Obama disproved whatever he claimed in 2008. I could list over a dozen CRITICAL NATIONAL CONCERNS that he outright LIED about before he took office. Why the hell would you continue to drink his koolaide? What is wrong with you people? Have you lost your ability to reason and and to discern fiction from reality?

    My God. When I read comments like yours it scares the hell out of me.

  237. Beelzebub Says:

    “The choice sadly is between who will do the least amount of damage and so we get to pick which poison we want. Oversimplifying it – lose your money or lose your liberties”

    WTF???

    Have you been paying attention to Obama’s track record for the last 3.5 years??? He’s been taking BOTH our money and our liberties!!! And I can prove it with the evidence!!!

    A lame duck Obama would be like a runaway frieght training barreling down the side of a mountain – with NOTHING stopping him from finishing the job and destroying your children’s futures!!! What don’t your eyes believe??? Do you think things have improved under Obama??? HAH! Whatever he’s done has fallen flat on it’s face. LOOK AT ALL THE TAXPAYER MONEY HE POURED INTO THE ECONOMY!!! CALIFORNIA’S U/E IS STILL ALMOST 11%!!!! We are running another $TRILLION$ PLUS DEFICIT for 2012!!! He went to war in Libya without even consulting congress first!!! He extended the Patriot Act INDEFINITELY!!! He made it incredibly difficult for even the media to get data on the Wall Street collapse through the Freedom of Information Act!!! He is heading an operation to persecute Julian Assange for simply publishing information handed to him by another party – just like Woodward, Bernstein and Ellsberg did!!!

    THOSE ARE ONLY A FEW OF HIS ACTS!!!! I COULD NAME DOZENS MORE!!! HE IS A DICTATOR IN THE MAKING!!!! OPEN YOUR EYES, MAN!!!

  238. Kidding Me Says:

    Beelzebub unless you have performed a comprehensive economic analysis of Obamacare that you’d like to link to, I will go with the analyses that are out there. Can Obamacare fail and put us in an even larger hole – certainly it can though I hope not?

    So what is your proposal on how we can reduce our national debt. Criticizing something that is out there is all well and good but the criticism is meaningless unless accompanied by an alternate solution. The current path is not sustainable(I think mostly everybody agrees on this) so what would you have us do?

    Sacrifice as a society to pay for past political sins is pretty much a given, the only question is who is going to sacrifice how much. Or would you rather have us continue on current path and wait for a crisis to then figure out where we go from there.

  239. Kidding Me Says:

    Beelzebub cool down, easier to think when one is calm. Use the count backwards from 10 to 1 trick if needed. You’ve outlined your criticisms against Obama, great. So the next question to ask is – do you believe that Romney/Ryan will make things better? Because in 2012 at least, we still don’t have a 3rd party with a middle ground that we so desperately need. BTW I am an independent voter, not a registered Democrat or Repub so the fact that Obama has done much that I disagree with, what is far more relevant to me is go forward who will do the least amount of damage.

  240. Kidding Me Says:

    Regards Assange, yea the situation is bad but imo he would have been the target of US anger in any administration. The method would be different but not the motive. Dems are trying the UK-Sweden path, Repubs would probably storm in with UK assistance and whisk him away to a Hanoi Hilton equivalent.

  241. Kidding Me Says:

    Ecuador is fooling itself by engaging in their current act. Ecuador is a nobody, the Brits will storm in and grab him. They have made that clear and will follow through on this threat.

  242. Beelzebub Says:

    “The current path is not sustainable(I think mostly everybody agrees on this) so what would you have us do?”

    One thing I wouldn’t do is throw crap up against the wall and hope that some sticks when the wall is oiled down!!!

    Please THINK! Look at what Obamacare does:

    1) It shifts the costs for healthcare to the PRODUCTIVE middle class which is already being dismantled.

    2) It rewards corporations that have FAILED to reform our healthcare system and bring costs under control.

    3) It merges state (enforcer) and corporate powers (beneficiary) which is a form of fascism to exploit and impoverish the middle class.

    4) It allows people to only buy healthcare insurance (and pay a lesser penalty) when they are sick – thus driving the price of medical insurance through the roof. The only ones buying healthcare will be the sick people AFTER they get sick since they cannot be refused.

    5) It still allows illegal indigents from walking into an ER and get medical care on the legal taxpayer’s dime. So Juanita can still drop her premie and we have to pay $2M to ensure it lives, plus afterwards give both of them free food, housing and medical care.

    6) The origional GOAL of healthcare reform was to REDUCE COSTS. Obamacare does NOTHING of the sort, as I have just
    outlined to you.

    Kidding…….the entire system is broken. We need to either go back to the way it was when I was a kid – everybody paid their routine medical costs out of pocket and were covered for hospitalization – which would bring the costs down IMMEDIATELY. Today a third party pays the bills so the patient doesn’t give a rat’s ass what it costs. Whoever checks how much their medical bills are today? They either get it for free (medicaid, medicare) or the employer pays it with ever increasing premiums.

    I would rather live under the Canadian system than what Obamacare is going to do to us. The Canadians look at our healthcare system and shudder. They see the fascism within. Americans are too stupid to understand what’s going on!

  243. Beelzebub Says:

    “Beelzebub cool down, easier to think when one is calm. Use the count backwards from 10 to 1 trick if needed”

    I refuse to calm down. We are talking the survival of our nation and our children’s future.

    “So the next question to ask is – do you believe that Romney/Ryan will make things better?”

    Romney is the lesser of two evils. But I think he will be able to stop the bleeding. Something Obama has failed at. In fact, Obama is putting salt in the wound. He must go. As a lame duck he would sink the nation. Mark my words. He is a power hungry dictator and liar who is tied to Wall Street tighter than any Republican.

    Romney is NOT a lame duck. Obama IS a lame duck. That alone should make you decide whether you will vote for Obama or Romney – if those are the 2 choices that you are considering. To me it’s a no brainer. You can alway vote your conscience for a 3rd party candidate – and I respect that – but let’s be honest – you would be throwing your vote away as a protest vote. But that is NOT a bad option IMO. The electoral system is just as broken as the medical system in America. Look at the approval ratings of Congress and the State legislature – and then look at the % of incumbents who get reelected. That alone should make you understand how crooked the voting system is in America!!!!

    WAKE UP!!!

    “Regards Assange, yea the situation is bad but imo he would have been the target of US anger in any administration”

    Assange did not violate any laws – any more than Ellsberg, Woodward and Bernstein did. Assange is being persecuted by governments that claim to believe in one thing – yet do the exact opposite. Read between the lines. Don’t fall for the propoganda.

    “Dems are trying the UK-Sweden path, Repubs would probably storm in with UK assistance and whisk him away to a Hanoi Hilton equivalent”

    Both the dem and repub leaders want Assange persecuted IN SPITE OF what the constitution says. Whether they storm the embassy doors of Ecuador or extradite Assange to Sweden on trumped up charges so that he could be extradited to the US on more trumped up charges – what difference does it make what methods they use to do it???

    “Ecuador is fooling itself by engaging in their current act”

    I respect Ecuador for their stance. Not many individuals or nations in the world have courage anymore. Courage is a beautiful virtue.

    “Ecuador is a nobody, the Brits will storm in and grab him”

    If that happens the Brits are fascists. It would be a blatant act of war and MIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

    The Brits must remember that they too have embassies in unfriendly nations. heh. If they start the precedence what goes around comes around. heh. ;) And afterwards they can’t cry “foul” either!!! heh.

  244. Beelzebub Says:

    For each year Obama has been in office the deficit has been greater than $1 TRILLION.

    It’s projected at over $1.2 TRILLION in 2012.

    It’s not getting better, folks.

    Obamacare is a TAX. The LARGEST TAX IN AMERICAN HISTORY! Remember when he told us it was not a tax??? hah! Liar. Bald faced Liar! He told us that on the George Stepanopolous Show only about 2-3 weeks before it was voted on in Congress. Had he been honest it would have NEVER passed.

    INDEFENSIBLE!

    Obama is a master con artist. And a very good one. He fools a lot of people. Seemingly intelligent people too. They swallow his bait. And they afterwards ask themselves “Why did I do that? Why did I believe him?”

    That’s the mark of a master con artist.

  245. Beelzebub Says:

    Remember when Obama told you OVER AND OVER AGAIN that if you made less than $250,000 you would not pay an extra dime for Obamacare and that you would get the same health care plan as your congressman??? HAH! :D

    Many of you forgot about that too, didn’t you???

    How many times are you going to let this guy con you for Christ sakes?

  246. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Obama fooled you once, rex
    Don’t let him do it again.

    Beelz, I voted for Arnold, I voted for Obama, BOTH were the biggest let downs of my life. I am NOT voting for Obama again, he is a failure IMO, and I probably will not vote for Romney either-looks like a 3rd party protest vote for me, and that’s OK because I vote my conscience, I vote my mind and I don’t look back.

    Obama and Romney are going to let Wall Street and public unions destroy what is left of this great country, and I am positive neither one will do jack for the average working class American. Heck Romney was only paying 13% effective tax rates, a guy with a net worth of $300 million, that is a crime all by itself, when poor people making $30K per year are paying 25% effective tax rates and net worth individuals are only paying 13%-explain that one to me.

    And lets not forget Romney has offshore bank accounts-no reason to do that unless you’re scamming the IRS.

    But listen, Obamacare is here, like I said we are on the test track -since we have come this far to the race lets test drive it for a few laps and try it out. Now, if we crash I will jump ship in a heart beat to your side, but not until we have tried the engine out on the track after all this time, energy, money and effort.

  247. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    BTW Beelz, did you see CWD this morning??? Chriss Street says Moodys is going to stop- as in put an end to- the public pension scam, and if CalTURDS tries pulling anymore shennaigans Moodys will simply stop issuing debt to CA and CA muni’s. That will be the kiss of death for the state.

    http://www.calwatchdog.com/2012/08/18/moodys-warns-of-mass-calif-municipal-bankruptcies/

  248. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I agree with this guy 100%;

    August 18, 2012 The Election Is Irrelevant by Jim Rogers (a pure capitalist).
    As far as I’m concerned, the election is irrelevant. One happens to be from Boston and one from Chicago, and whoever wins, their friends are going to do well, but other than that America is not going to do well. There’s very little difference in any of these guys. None of them understands the problem. These are the guys that got us into trouble. You expect them to get us out? -

    Jim Rogers is an author, financial commentator and successful international investor. He has been frequently featured in Time, The New York Times, Barron’s, Forbes, Fortune, The Wall Street Journal, The Financial Times and is a regular guest on Bloomberg and CNBC. After attending Yale and Oxford University, Jim Rogers co-founded the Quantum Fund, a global-investment partnership. During the next 10 years, the portfolio gained 4200%, while the S&P 500 rose less than 50%. Rogers then decided to retire – at age 37.

    BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This guy knows his sh**!

  249. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Hey beelz, tell spension to do a bong hit of this next time he claims DB’s cost less than DC’s, you were so right, and spension was so wrong, as usual;

    A study just released by two think tanks confirms taxpayers and public workers are paying huge fees for public pension funds to underperform standard market indexes.
    For some reason beyond comprehension, municipal and state workers continue to cling to the people ripping them off and aiming their venom at innocent taxpayers who are expected to pick up the tab.
    The study by Maryland Tax Education Foundation chairman Jeff Hooke and Maryland Public Policy Institute visiting fellow Michael Tasselmyer focuses on that beleaguered state’s dismal performance and high fees, but compiles national data for comparison.
    “The 50 systems had total assets of over $2 trillion. In 2011, they spent over $7.8 billion in Wall Street fees, despite the lack of evidence that active management provides higher investment returns,” the study found,
    Taxpayers and public workers actually paid these experts to lose $230 billion over a period when they promised to gain more than $1 trillion.

    Read more: http://www.statebudgetsolutions.org/blog/detail/chump-public-workers-still-feeding-pension-thieves#ixzz23wZQWe7F

  250. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    beezyboob and poodle wrong……..well…………..yet again !

    http://www.benefitspro.com/2011/10/20/nyc-db-plans-more-cost-effective-than-dc-plans

    this is just too easy…

    hurry slave trolls!!!

  251. Beelzebub Says:

    I voted for Arnold too, rex. He fooled me. That doesn’t happen often either. Usually I read these snakes like a cheap Penguin paperback. I guess it was his acting skills that did it. Biggest disappointed in Ca history.

    But I read Obama from day one. He’s one lying snake. The thought of him becoming a lame duck president sends shivers up and down my spine. He gave us a taste of his unrestrained power hungry acts in his first term. The voters had better beware. He hands out our money to everybody….public unions trough feeders and Wall Street crooks.

    I agree that Romney isn’t much better. But being a first termer he won’t damage the country like Obama will.

    To be quite honest I think the 2013-2016 President has already been elected. We just don’t know it yet. I think the oligarchs chose him some time ago. The voters have little to do with choosing the president. We think we’re in control. We’re not.

    I would love to see Moody’s drop the big financial bomb on CalTURDS. They have the power to do it too. If CalTURDS tries to cut in front of the secured bondholders in the muni bankrupcies you watch the Wall Street mafia cut them off at the knees. And if push comes to shove both Obama and Romney will back Wall Street before they back CalTURDS. Their REAL owners work on Wall Street.

    I like Jim Rogers. Sometimes he’s wrong but most the time he tell’s it like it is. I think he nailed it on the lack of difference between Obama and Romney. Both are owned lock, stock and barrel.

    Spension is all wet when it comes to understanding the difference between DB’s and DC’s. As I said so many times before, how could DB’s (like CalTURDS) have such low expense ratios when it has over 216 Wall Street investment pimps on their payroll? It defies common sense. Index funds would be best. Not a major difference in ROI between index funds and managed funds. What you gain in ROI you give back in commissions.

  252. Beelzebub Says:

    It’s a very scary time to be an investor. With ZIRP (zero interest rate policy) people are practically forced to put their money into higher risk stocks or bonds to get any return whatsoever. It’s like a game of chicken. The next time the markets crash it might not be just a 700 point DOW drop over consecutive days like we saw in 2008. It could very well be a 5000 point drop in one trading day. That’s no exaggeration. There is so much funny business happening in the markets behind the scenes it’s really hard to believe balance sheets or income statements anymore. When a company (especially banks) say that they are capitalized at a certain net worth one really has to wonder whether we are getting real numbers or phantom numbers. The regulatory system, as we have seen, is practically worthless. Some of these banks are getting fined for illegal activities – but nobody is going to jail. The banks don’t give a damn about these fines. They just pass the costs onto their customers. Everybody already knows that. So the government pockets the fines, the banks raise their rates and the consumer gets screwed. It is MORE collusion between gov and private business. If nobody goes to jail for committing crimes what good is the law? It’s meaningless. But some dude on the streetcorner who sells an eightball of crack to an U/C cop does 5 years hard time.

    Playing the markets these days is like passing around a time activated explosive device. If your holding at the wrong time you’re done.

  253. spension Says:

    More cranial semen from tweedildum and tweedildummer…

    The 50 systems had total assets of over $2 trillion. In 2011, they spent over $7.8 billion in Wall Street fees,

    Uh… 7.8/2000 = 0.39%, which is lower than just about every CalSTRS DC plan expense ratios (1-2%) you guys (Rex & BZ) confused with DB expense ratios.

    Whatever that article says about DB plan expense ratios, DC plans are 2.5 to 5 times WORSE.

    Please, when you remove your digits from your lower orifice, please wash them before typing at your keyboards, you stink this place up, Rex & BZ.

    Of course, I agree passively managed index funds are better, but you guys, with your whining about unimportance of expense ratios, whiz in your mess kit and all over your keyboards and into each other mouths on that one too. Go read some Jack Bogle books.

  254. Beelzebub Says:

    The DB’s shift the risk from the employee to the taxpayer, spension. The DC’s keeps the risk where it belongs – with the employee. That is reason enough to abolish the DB and to implement the DC. Match their first 6% contribution with a 6% gov match and allow them to contribute up to another 6% for the tax deferrment. Use one broker to manage it and provide a wide variety of low-expense index funds in which to invest. DONE. No need for SS or a DB pension. The DC would provide ample opportunity for a nice retirement after 30-40 years. And the taxpayer is happy too. No longer is he left caught holding the bag if the markets implode. And if the markets do implode everyone gets screwed equally.

    There. That was easy. Next problem?

  255. spension Says:

    Yet more horseapples from BZ. There is not`the risk’. DB systems simply *reduce* `the risk’ to a level below that of DC plans, due to pooling. The problem with DB plans is not `the risk’ but that `the payout’ got too big.

    Yes it would be good of DC plans had lower expense ratios. That fact is: THEY DON’T! Reality rains totally on your parade, BZ.

    The taxpayer is most happy with efficient use of their dollars. DC plans are 1/2 as efficient as DB plans. Just because California messed up its payout rates, doesn’t mean the problem was DB plans, it was innumeracy on the part of the pension officials and politicians in California. Just go to payouts like one of the 6 DB pension that is not in a California tailspin:

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

    Problem solved. Put your digits back in your exhaust port, BZ, and go back to licking up Rex’s mayo.

  256. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, has spension taken one bong hit too many?? Has he been partying with seesaw at some SEIU beach parties?????

    Why is he dumber than a bag of rocks. I school him so much he could have a degree in pension economics, but he refuses to learn! You can lead a horse (or jack ass like spension to water but you cannot make them drink :)

  257. Captain Says:

    spension Says: “Yes it would be good of DC plans had lower expense ratios. That fact is: THEY DON’T! Reality rains totally on your parade, BZ.

    The taxpayer is most happy with efficient use of their dollars. DC plans are 1/2 as efficient as DB plans.”

    – For who? Spensions, give me a break. Do You really believe the DB plans are efficient?????

    “Just because California messed up its payout rates, doesn’t mean the problem was DB plans, it was innumeracy on the part of the pension officials and politicians in California.”

    – But you forgot to include the unions. I agree that the politicians were – and ARE, complicit in the pension fiasco but so are the UNIONS and CALPERS (one and the same really), and the CALPERS BOARD. Doesn’t matter to me what you think as long as you continue to ignore the burden placed on the taxpayer. According to you, “The taxpayer is most happy with efficient use of their dollars.” Of course they are but how does that statement apply here? Is that statement meant as a joke?

    As far as I’m concerned all these blow-hard groups have lost the privilege of dictating the Defined Contribution vs. Defined Benefit debate – even if it does make sense if done right.

    Neither the Politicians, PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNIONS, CALPERS, or the PUBLIC EMPLOYEE UNION MEMBERS themselves could care less about the TAXPAYERS. That much is PAINFULLY-FINANCIALLY CLEAR.

    What I want to make clear is that the TAXPAYERS I know don’t want anything more to do with Guaranteeing bloated & spiked pensions that are based on bloated wages, for people that retire way to early, at CALPERS DISCOUNT RATES/INTEREST RATES that even CALPERS knows they can’t achieve.

    Bring on the 401K with a 3% match! Why do so many people keep trying to rationalize/justify this Union/CaLPERS scam against the taxpayers? If the Unions/CalPERS gave one iota about what taxpayers thought this issue would have been resolved long ago, and maybe to you liking Spensions. That didn’t happen nor is it even part of the current discussion. And I no longer care what the Public Employee Unions/CalPERS, CalPERS Board of Directors, thinks either.

    Nothing but a bunch of crooks that only Bernie Madoff could envy!

  258. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    lol Beezyboob voted for Arnold???????????

    That’s all we need to know!

    The ocODDball rides again!!!!!!!!!!

  259. Beelzebub Says:

    spension, we’ve tried to educate you, we’ve tried to compromise with you, we’ve hand fed you with the truth and tried to get you to see the light. But now we accept the fact that you are hopelessly stuck on stupid. I’ve even proposed a 6% gov match on the first 6% contributed by a public trough feeder PLUS an additional opportunity for the trough feeder to contribute another 6% tax deferred in a 401-k. God almighty. That’s a 18% investment toward retirement. You pooh-poohed that too. You’d complain if they hung you with a brand new rope.

  260. Beelzebub Says:

    Teddy, your dinosaur brain isn’t capable of picking a winner in a one-horse race.

  261. Ted Steele, The Decider Says:

    Beezyboob—- Seriously? you voted for Arnold? you didn’t see his bs
    BEFORE the election?????????????

    lol— not too sharp.

    oh my!

  262. SeeSaw Says:

    GAS was going to “Blow up the boxes”. How did that work out Beeze and Rex? I never voted for him——————-Ah, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA…….What a couple of dum-dums.

  263. Beelzebub Says:

    Nah. We know you were a Gray Davis fan.

    Gray was the biggest loser in Ca political history who got the boot.

    He was your man!

    HAH! :D

  264. Beelzebub Says:

    As corrupted as Arnold was – at least he completed is term without getting shown the door before his time – like Gray baby did!!!! HAH!

    Gray and anyone who voted for him is a total loser!!!

    Too close to home, Teddy??? :D

  265. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    lol Beezyboob voted for Arnold???????????
    That’s all we need to know!

    Bill Lockyer also voted for Arnold fool. Now take your foot out of your (and Queeg and Uhauls) mouth!

    Man, spanking Teddy never gts old :)

  266. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    GAS was going to “Blow up the boxes”. How did that work out Beeze and Rex? I never voted for him——————-Ah, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA…….What a couple of dum-dums.
    it didn’t work out very good, but it worked out better than th edork yu voted for-Davis. Now who’s the “dum-dum” :)

    And Clown is arguably doing a much worse job than Clown Hair did, so once again, who is the “dum-dum” seesaw ( seesaw, stop with the 3rd grader insults, grow up woman !!! ;) )

  267. SeeSaw Says:

    Well Beeze, my man didn’t hoodwink the voters and take office with the knowledge that he already had a child with the maid. Gray Davis can still hold his head up–your man can’t.

  268. Beelzebub Says:

    “Well Beeze, my man didn’t hoodwink the voters and take office with the knowledge that he already had a child with the maid. Gray Davis can still hold his head up–your man can’t”

    Irrelevant. Isn’t Gray Davis gay? I have never seen him with a woman before. He’s not married, is he? I don’t know that much about his personal life. Please fill me in.

    What Arnold did to his Maria is indefensible. I have no idea why she has considered returning to their marriage. Perhaps they are back together. I don’t know. But what happens at home in bed had nothing to do with Arnold’s political performance. Although it was dismal – my opinion is that Arnold was 25x’s more effective than Gay Davis. And the fact that Arnold never got recalled attests to that fact. ;)

    Davis was publicly trashed and voted from office by a large majority of citizens. I have no idea how he could still show his face in public. Does he still live in California? A man with any self-respect would have relocated to the open territories of Montana or Idaho to hang out with the sheep and avoid as many humanoids as possible. :)

  269. SeeSaw Says:

    Davis is married to a Mrs. Davis. He is still a respectable citizen of the state of CA.

    Poor Rex–you can dish it out, but you sure can’t take it!

  270. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    seesaw, you’re pretty much the only one that makes personal attacks on others who disagree with you , I pity you woman :)

    BTW what was it I couldn’t take????

  271. SeeSaw Says:

    You just proved it.

  272. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    LOL :)

    No, YOU just proved it!

  273. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Beelz, we need to help seesaw get the professional help she needs so bad :) If we can get Teddy to go into rehab with seesaw we may get a discount ;)

  274. Beelzebub Says:

    Some claim that denial is a mental illness. Perhaps they could do group therapy with Seesaw, Teddy, Spension, Queeq and Uhaul. Oh, I forgot. Queeq and Uhaul are Teddy’s multiple personalities so a good shrink would only bill them at half rate.

  275. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Oh, I forgot. Queeq and Uhaul are Teddy’s multiple personalities so a good shrink would only bill them at half rate.

    Yes, we get a threefer with the Teddy sock puppets!

  276. spension Says:

    Captain Says: For who? Spensions, give me a break. Do You really believe the DB plans are efficient?????

    Absolutely. Expense ratio for CalPERS is 0.5%. For CalSTRS and UCRP, 0.15%. For DC plans, cited by BZ and REX, 1-2%. These #’s should be compared with the real yearly return, assumed to by 7-8%, maybe really 4-5%. 2% of your 4% gain is 1/2 of the gain… a *HUGE* deal.

    In addition, pooling further makes DB Plans more efficient. Here is a figure:

    Then if you want examples of DB pension systems that didn’t go nuts like those in California (BTW, *ADMINISTRATORS*, who are *NON-UNION*, get the highest pensions in California. Not to excuse the unions, but they have not been unique in racheting up benefits so high):

    http://www.nirsonline.org/storage/nirs/documents/Lessons%20Learned/final_june_29_report_lessonsfromwellfundedpublicpensions1.pdf

    I you want 3% employer match, it would be much more effectively put in a DB plan, not DC.

    BTW, the high expense ratio in DC plans goes right to the same Wall Street guys who crashed the economy. Are they paying you, Captain?

  277. Beelzebub Says:

    There are over 300 ‘emerging investment managers’ alone on the CalPERS payroll, spension.

    And the fees to the investment managers is only a part of the total expenses.

    How could their expense ratio only be 0.5%.

    CalSTRS is managed in the same way.

    How could their expense ration be 0.15%

    Sorry. It cannot be believed.

    Looks like creative gimmick accounting to me.

    The expenses must be hidden.

  278. spension Says:

    If the published expense ratios are wrong, *PROVE IT*, BZ. All else is wasting everybody’s time.

  279. Ted Steele, Beet Framer Says:

    lol how true!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 265 other followers

%d bloggers like this: