Stockton: work month, get lifetime health care?

One of a long list of missteps said to be pushing Stockton toward becoming the biggest U.S. city to declare bankruptcy is a promise of free lifetime health care for some workers, estimated to cost $417 million over the next 30 years.

California’s thirteenth largest city, population 292,000, also issued an ill-timed $125 million bond in 2007 to cover pension costs. The bond money shriveled to $82.5 million when CalPERS had huge investment losses in a stock market crash a year later.

Now Stockton officials think that if CalPERS lowers its earnings forecast from 7.75 to 7.5 percent next month, the city’s annual pension payment could increase by roughly $6.7 million in 2013, about $4.4 million from the deficit-ridden general fund.

The city council voted 6-to-1 Tuesday for a financial rescue plan that, among other things, suspends $2 million in bond payments and calls for mediation under a new state law to persuade creditors, mainly bondholders, to accept less than owed.

City officials said the mediation is a last-ditch attempt to avoid bankruptcy by closing an estimated $20 million general fund deficit next fiscal year, which could balloon to $38 million if a union lawsuit overturns city-imposed cuts in worker benefits.

Though located in prime farm land with an inland port, Stockton has been troubled with above-average rates of poverty, crime, unemployment and now home foreclosures. It has twice topped Forbes magazine’s “Most Miserable City” list.

The city had a housing boom before the recession. New housing permits hit 3,000 in 2005 and median home prices $400,000 in 2006. Only 152 permits were issued in 2010 and the median price is now around $140,000.

The city borrowed heavily during the boom for the pension bond, a new arena, marina improvements and other projects. The city issued a $40.5 million bond in 2007 to buy a bank building for a new city hall, but has since lacked the money to move in.

New Stockton City Hall

Old Stockton City Hall

A consultant’s report said most debt, $657 million, is secured by restricted revenue. The deficit-ridden general fund backs a debt of $319 million, an unusual step needed in some cases to improve the credit rating for lenders skeptical of Stockton.

After the recession hit, the city declared a fiscal emergency in 2010, which was extended for a third year Tuesday. The city has frozen pay, required workers to make the employee contribution to CalPERS and set limits on city payments for health insurance.

The total workforce, 1,886 in fiscal 2008, has dropped to 1,424. Sworn police officers have been cut from 441 to 343. Last year nearly 50 firefighter positions were eliminated.

“I find this city currently in quick sand,” said Councilmember Diana Lowery. “It is so difficult for all our residents. From a public safety perspective, we constantly hear daily the problems that exist with our public safety issues.”

In July 2010, Mayor Ann Johnston and the council hired a city manager, Bob Deis, with three decades of experience in three states. He was told to fix longstanding problems and set the city on a course toward solvency.

Deis and Laurie Montes, the deputy city manager, told the council they found bookkeeping errors, overdrafts, about $2.7 million in uncollected bills and fines, a tendency for staff to make decisions without telling the city council and other problems.

“There is no one event, no one decision, no one person that you can attribute Stockton’s financial situation to,” Deis said at a news conference last week. “It’s an accumulation of things that occurred over the last 20 years.”

Deis has been in a long-running dispute with unions, who accuse him of using reductions needed during the recession to exaggerate the city’s financial problems and make excessive cuts in employee pay and benefits.

The police union famously bought a house next to Deis and has used billboards to deplore the layoff of cops, tally homicides, call Stockton one of California’s most dangerous cities and post the city manager’s phone number.

The clash continued during a council meeting of nearly six hours Tuesday night. A number of audience members accused Deis of presenting phony and incomplete financial data. They vowed to work against the re-election of council members.

Deis refused to answer a question from the lone vote against the financial package, Councilmember Dale Fritchen. His reply, “You know the answer,” suggested that Fritchen was asking rhetorical questions to sway the television audience.

The council agreed with Fritchen’s suggestion that an independent agency should investigate whether “persons or entities” contributed to Stockton’s financial plight, not the city manager and city attorney as recommended by Deis.

Vice Mayor Kathy Miller said later “folks at home watching this” should know that nearly all of the speakers during public comment were union members or retirees “with a vested interest in continuing the dysfunction of this organization.”

City manager Bob Deis

Dwane Milnes

One of the speakers, Dwayne Milnes, the Stockton city manager from 1991 to 2001, now heads a new group, the Association of Retired Employees of the City of Stockton.

Milnes reminded the council that he had sent them information showing that “it’s a myth that employees could retire with full medical after one month,” a reference to a well-publicized remark made by Deis at the news conference last week.

Deis replied that Stockton in the 1980s offered retiree health care usually limited to seven years or age 62. He said the problem began in the 1990s when the city began offering lifetime retiree health without proper funding.

A “perfect storm” resulted, said Deis, when increased pension benefits during the 1990s and early 2000s allowed employees to retire earlier and receive lifetime health care for themselves and their spouses.

Under some of the plans, said Deis, a person with four years and 11 months of service with another employer such as Modesto could work one month at Stockton and be eligible for free lifetime health care.

A “second opinion” report prepared by a consultant, Management Partners, which supported Deis’s general findings, said Stockton retiree health care costs $15 million a year ($9 million general fund) and is projected to be $30 million ($16.8 million general fund) in 10 years. (See p. 251.77)

Mayor Johnston and others said labor has contributed to a solution, a tax increase is not feasible and deeper service cuts would be damaging. So bondholders will be asked to contribute during mediation.

The process authorized by AB 506 last year is expected to cost the city about $3.5 million and take up to 90 days. If mediation fails, some think the process could help prepare the city for bankruptcy, saving time and money.

The city hired a bankruptcy attorney, Marc Levinson, who worked for Vallejo during its bankruptcy. He said Vallejo’s main bond creditor, Union Bank, refused to negotiate and in bankruptcy court received only $30 million of $50 million owed.

“Everybody has to make concessions to make this work,” Levinson said of the Stockton mediation. “They are owed collectively over $300 million. They are not going to walk away from it easily.”

Reporter Ed Mendel covered the Capitol in Sacramento for nearly three decades, most recently for the San Diego Union-Tribune. More stories are at http://calpensions.com/ Posted 1 Mar 12

80 Responses to “Stockton: work month, get lifetime health care?”

  1. Ted Steele, Head Renter, it's cozy up here in Rex Poodle's tiny head! Says:

    Deis is THE poster child of the republican tea baggy right on this issue— a steady stream of phony stats and false data— this time though sounds like the people in the audience caught him. It is nonsense that one month equals lifetime medical— the break– terminates the med after the transfer and the former City Manager knows it!

  2. Tough Love Says:

    Quoting …”Mayor Johnston and others said labor has contributed to a solution, a tax increase is not feasible and deeper service cuts would be damaging. So bondholders will be asked to contribute during mediation.”

    Well guess what ……… “labor” hasn’t nearly contributed enough. Before Bondholders (who lent you their cash in good faith) should be stiffed, the Grossly excessive pensions should be FROZEN with ZERO accruals for FUTURE Service replaced with a 401K with a modest “match”) and retiree healthcare should be ended.

    Sounds draconian ????? No it’s not. THIS is what everyone in the country EXCEPT Civil Servants gets …. and “EARTH-TO-CIVIL-SERVANTS” …. you’re NOT “special”.

  3. SeeSaw Says:

    There is no such thing as lifetime health care, anymore, at most public entities. My former employer requires 25 years continuous service, to provide medical coverage, after retirement–then, it pays a stipend toward the total cost of the medical premium. Thirty-two percent, of my pension check, goes to pay, out-of-pocket medical insurance premium costs, for me and my spouse.

  4. SeeSaw Says:

    No, TL, Civil Servants are not special–they are just normal working people. The fact that the private sector treats its workers like crap, is no fault of the public servants.

  5. alic Says:

    Deis is equally hated in Sonoma County, where he nearly ruined our county government and was run out of town.

  6. Tough Love Says:

    Seesaw, The trouble with your “logic” is the failure to acknowledge (or perhaps give a Sh**) that 80-90% of the MUCH greater pensions & benefits afforded Civil Servants come from taxes paid by PRIVATE sector workers who don’t get these rich perks.

  7. Accounting Avenger Says:

    It is difficult to read comments on these forums by those defenders of the system and not respond. Invariably the defenders of the system are people who themselves benefit from the generous employment packages offered by local cities and counties. What these unions in Stockton have done is reason enough to make public sector unions illegal. The way they have harassed the City Manager ought to cost everyone involved their jobs.

    The average state/local worker in California makes – if you include the value of their current and future benefits – well over TWICE what people make for similar work in the private sector. It is grossly unaffordable and those of us who pay more than half our income in taxes will NEVER vote for more taxes to fund this. It is obscene.

    To call anyone who simply has looked at the numbers and is trying to reform this travesty a “tea bagger” or a “hater” is unreasonable and financially ignorant. Outlaw public sector unions. Reduce public sector worker pay and benefits to private sector levels. Then start thinking about how to provide sustainable taxpayer-funded benefits for ALL workers, not just unionized government workers.

  8. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I see Teddy Steals is trying to spin the same old tall tales- as always.

    Hey Teddy, I am betting on 55% pension CUTS to the cops and ff’s, lil buddy, wanna put your money (taxpayer money really :) ) where you lying mouth is :)

  9. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    It is difficult to read comments on these forums by those defenders of the system and not respond. Invariably the defenders of the system are people who themselves benefit from the generous employment packages offered by local cities and counties.

    Actually they’re the ONLY ones defending the scam, them and their families who are ripping off the poor and middle class with regressive tax hikes on the poor….to make them the 1%Er’s.

  10. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    The average state/local worker in California makes – if you include the value of their current and future benefits – well over TWICE what people make for similar work in the private sector.

    Twice??? Come on, that is being kind.

    GED educated cops can comp $300K PLUS with pension and overtime added in. That is a GED job-which would pay $13K in the real world.

  11. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    No, TL, Civil Servants are not special–they are just normal working people. The fact that the private sector treats its workers like crap, is no fault of the public servants.

    Actually this shows your total ignorance of what a free market democracy is all about seesaw, and shows what a crazy little world you and teddy Steals live in. Someoen who has never had a REAL JOB in the REAL WORLD.

    85% of employment is in the private sector, that is what dives and allows government to operated and function. What is paid and given in benefits in the private sector is what the MARKET RATE IS, and what it should be. So your comment, liek all of you comments, is total BS.

    Next you’re going to tell us $74K SALARY ($125K COMP parking lot attendant jobs are fair too, right seesaw??? $125K for a PARKING LOT ATTENDANT-only in government.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinionla/la-ed-ladwp-20120210,0,7115922.story

  12. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    There is no such thing as lifetime health care, anymore, at most public entities.

    LOL….and what about the 1.9 million trough feeders that ALREADY have it, for free, after working only 1 month – 5 years?????

    More spin from the washing machine of trough feeder lies.

  13. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    seesaw says There is no such thing as lifetime health care, anymore, at most public entities.

    LOL….and what about the 1.9 million trough feeders that ALREADY have it, for free, after working only 1 month – 5 years?????

    More spin from the washing machine of trough feeder lies.

  14. Captain Says:

    What a mess!

    Stockton’s safety plan is 67% funded with an Unfunded Liability of $248,450,000. The Miscellaneous employee plan is 70% funded with an Unfunded Liability of $164,765,000. The funding ratios would be lower and the Unfunded Liability greater if not for the 125 million in Pension Obligation Bonds. That amounts to $538,215,000 in unfunded pension liabilities, or more than half a BILLION dollars.

    On top of the 538 MILLION the city owes 415 million in health care costs over the next thirty years. That is just what’s owed to present & retired workers for past service.

    Given the other debt, a shrinking budget and increasing pension & healthcare costs, I don’t see how Stockton can avoid bankruptcy. Actually, bankruptcy is probably their best and only option.

  15. Ted Steele, Post Modern neo-con Troll Slayer Says:

    LOl man the poodle is spinning up!

    Avenger– your stats about public sector pay are nonsense — sorry!

  16. Ted Steele, Post Modern neo-con Troll Slayer Says:

    and seesaw is correct– nearly all public entities have cut retiree health care after a break in service– them is the facts— so sorry!

  17. Accounting Avenger Says:

    No they aren’t Steele. And I’m sick of you ignorant liars spewing your BS on these comment forums.

  18. spension Says:

    Well, lots of public workers in Canada and France have lifetime health care. Private workers too! Can we just hire Canada or France to run ours? They are both cheaper and better than California’s (anyone else notice the huge increases demanded by California health insurance companies?).

    But Stockton is a disgrace. The deluge is upon us. Maybe we could annex them to Greece.

  19. Accounting Avenger Says:

    spension – you allude to a fundamental principle that seems to be lost on the public sector apologiests: Not all of us are libertarians, nor are all of us against better access to health care. But whatever it is that taxpayers are asked to support has to be equally accessible to ALL workers according to the same merit-based and need-based formulas. We can disagree on the formulas. We can disagree on what we believe is financially sustainable. But however our government may create an environment of better health care access – and retirement security – it has to be the SAME DEAL for all taxpayers. The disgrace is that public sector unions have used their muscle to offer deals to their members in the government workforce that could never, ever be financially feasible to all workers. The inherent conflict of interest between being a public servant yet belonging to a powerful union that negotiates against the public is the reason public sector unions should be illegal.

  20. Drewsky Says:

    It looks to me that this a city that just doesn’t know how to handle money-PERIOD. Naturally, as a GOP dominated entity, they will blame their ineptitude on their public workers, unions, etc. How convenient and predictable…

  21. Captain Says:

    Milpitas Declares Fiscal Emergency

    I think this is fairly significant because it is the first Silicon Valley city to do so (that I’m aware of). Looks like the Domino’s are beginning to fall.

    It’s now an official fiscal emergency so Milpitas can pretend it’s Greece
    http://www.mercurynews.com/milpitas/ci_20072504

    Council declares Milpitas is in fiscal emergency
    http://www.mercurynews.com/milpitas/ci_20021518

  22. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Accounting Avenger just DESTROYED Teddy Steals!!!!!

    Teddy may not survive that smack down :)

  23. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Drewsky Says:
    March 1, 2012 at 8:35 pm
    It looks to me that this a city that just doesn’t know how to handle money-PERIOD. Naturally, as a GOP dominated entity, they will blame their ineptitude on their public workers, unions, etc. How convenient and predictable

    Don’t tell us, you work for a public union ;)

    No, what it is, is a city that was bribed by pubic workers, who were compensated 20 times what they would be in the real world, and like the real world they finally have gone Bk because it.

    Well, lots of public workers in Canada and France have lifetime health care. Private workers too! Can we just hire Canada or France to run ours?

    Agree 100%, but that still does not excuse giving lifetime medical to an employee and spouse for life after 30 days of employment.

  24. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    spension – you allude to a fundamental principle that seems to be lost on the public sector apologists: Not all of us are libertarians, nor are all of us against better access to health care. But whatever it is that taxpayers are asked to support has to be equally accessible to ALL workers according to the same merit-based and need-based formulas. We can disagree on the formulas. We can disagree on what we believe is financially sustainable. But however our government may create an environment of better health care access – and retirement security – it has to be the SAME DEAL for all taxpayers. The disgrace is that public sector unions have used their muscle to offer deals to their members in the government workforce that could never, ever be financially feasible to all workers. The inherent conflict of interest between being a public servant yet belonging to a powerful union that negotiates against the public is the reason public sector unions should be illegal.

    Accounting Avenger- no one could have laid out a better case for what is wrong. This fight has nothing to do with NOT wanting EVERYONE to have health care and pension coverage, but DOES have to do with giving public union employees a MUCH better deal than everyone else, and it is 100% politics($$).

  25. Ted Steele, Post Modern neo-con Troll Slayer Says:

    he smacked me down? On what planet?

    Seperation from employment for most transient public workers = termination of health benefits—– why do you clowns continue to vomit up made up facts? It’s a laugher!

    What does France have to do with anything?? LMAO !

  26. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Separation from employment for most transient public workers = termination of health benefits—– why do you clowns continue to vomit up made up facts?

    Steal, you make me laugh with your whopper lies. Tell me circus chimp, separation from employment for most transient public workers = termination of pensions—– of course not you fool, once you’re :vested”, in Stockton that was 30 days for health care-you cannot make it away, or ‘terminate” it.

    I wish could “terminate” you Teddy Steals, along with your whopper lies.

  27. Hondo Says:

    To all you public union members in Stockton. The numbers are the numbers. There is no way out for you. Get used to getting your CURRENT pensions and beni’s cut.
    You remind me of Cleavon Little in the movie ‘blazing saddles’ when he puts the gun to his own head and threatens “Nobody move or the nigger gets it”(Mr Little is black, by the way). You public unions want to weaponize your self and point that gun at society and threaten to shut down all govt. and society. Create kaos. But you must remember that you too live in this society and when you pull that trigger you are blowing your own brains out too.
    So lock and load you idiots.
    Hondo

  28. Ted Steele, Head Renter, it's cozy up here in Rex Poodle's tiny head! Says:

    poodle boi! Can’t you read? Did I say pension? Or health benefits??? LOL My god, are you high? Again

    This is just way too easy!

    type now slave troll!!

  29. James Says:

    the civil-service unions (and their members) consider the poor to be expendable. Not in words, but by their actions. They are demanding ever higher taxes (and thus fewer jobs for the poor, forcing jobs out of state) to fund their pensions and other benefits. But things that can’t last, eventually don’t. It’s just that the people who’ve been riding the gravy train get really upset when it stops.

  30. Captain Says:

    It’s a shame that people like ted Steale and SeeSaw consider themselves so powerful over the will of both people and common sense.

    Two fools tugging at our strings. Time to put a stop to all this BS! The sooner we get rid of public employee unions the better. And the sooner CalPERS quits spending taxpayer money to defend these fools, their frivilous lawsuits, and their promotion of all is well the better. It is past time that CalPERS quits acting like a union lobbyist and focuses on generating investment returns. It is also past time they quit worrying about trying to infiltrate the boards of companies like Apple Computer and focus on cleaning up their own sorry record of corruption.

    CalPERS is a huge part of this problem and that extends back to at least 1999 and SB 400. The goofy CalPERS Board of Directors that consists of mostly union goons and Democrats is is also a complete a failure.

  31. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    It’s a shame that people like ted Steele and SeeSaw consider themselves so powerful over the will of both people and common sense.

    They are legends in their own minds. We have repeatedly spanked them into the stone age with facts and truth and they still try to spin here.

    Spanking Teddy Steals is like taking candy from a baby. I owe him rent for camping out in his pea sized brain for so long now………….

  32. SeeSaw Says:

    I also worked in the private sector, before I worked in the public sector, Rex–and my spouse was a carpenter for 50 years. Is that enough, “real world”, experience, for you. You have nothing going for you, except trying to tear down so those made better choices than you did. Too bad dog, you must share your world with me–ha-ha.

  33. SeeSaw Says:

    Sorry, cap, I am part of the world too–ha-ha. Talk about someone who runs hot and cold, and friendly to hostile. What kind of world is that?

  34. Ted Steele, Post Modern neo-con Troll Slayer Says:

    James— You truly think that I think the poor are expendable? I don’t know you but let me go out on a limb here. You are a Republican and don’t think we should make the richest 1% pay the same marginal tax rate that the middle class pays—15% (gains) vs. say 28%….right?

  35. Ted Steele, Post Modern neo-con Troll Slayer Says:

    Hmmmm— looks like the poodle still owes me yet another rent check….LOL Oh my!

  36. Ted Steele, Post Modern neo-con Troll Slayer Says:

    Cappy– you think that the Calpers investment crew needs to work omn raising return rates? Has your 401k done as well over 20 years?

    Hmmmmmmmmmm….mine hasn’t!

  37. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    You have nothing going for you, except trying to tear down so those made better choices than you did.

    You have nothing going for you except to lie and spin fiction here and everywhere else.

    James— You truly think that I think the poor are expendable? I don’t know you but let me go out on a limb here. You are a Republican and don’t think we should make the richest 1% pay the same marginal tax rate that the middle class pays—15% (gains) vs. say 28%….right?

    Another straw man argument by the STEALer.

    Let me make a guess here, you are a GED wannabe, your Mom got you hired for your parking lot attendant job at DWP in LA and you could not spell cat if we spotted you the C and the T, but you “deserve” to be paid $75K in salary and another $75K in benefits because you are a dork-come on Steals, tell me I’m wrong :)

  38. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy and seesaw, I know you two don’t like to read, but here is the TITLE of this blog;

    Stockton: work month, get lifetime health care?”

    Ok, I will sit back and wait for you two spin Dr’s to come up with another whopper lie.

  39. Ted Steele, Post Modern neo-con Troll Slayer Says:

    poodle—- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz just not worth responding to your child like posts little buddy.

  40. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    DOUBLE BAM BAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  41. Work Horse Says:

    Rex The Wonder Dog–
    This is a serious forum—-your constant rudeness and immature positions are not welcome here.

  42. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Rex The Wonder Dog–
    This is a serious forum—-your constant rudeness and immature positions are not welcome here.

    Teddy stop posting unders sock puppets! :)

    BOOM!

  43. SeeSaw Says:

    Boy, are the green monsters out today! Make a statement that you are not rich and not special–and they still call you arrogant–go figure.

  44. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Make a statement that you are not rich and not special

    Hate to burst your bubble again seesaw, but CA cops, FF’s and tons of the special public safety scammers are ALL in the top 1%, they are the “1%ers”, they are not average or middle class or any of the other bogus assertions you claim.

    When GED educated cops and FF’;s get $5-$10 million pensions (and all other f/t gov employees at least $1 million) then they are certainly 1%ers and multi millionaires, on the backs of the poor and middle class private sector who are averaging HALF of what a trough feeder makes today.

    You and Ted Steals need to go home, and take your propaganda with you.

  45. SeeSaw Says:

    I have no knowledge about wages for parking lot attendants, Rex. I don’t sit around, all day, and scour salary schedules, of public entities, like you do. You must be looking for a job.

  46. SeeSaw Says:

    I have no bubble, and you are not bursting such, Rex. I am just going on with my life. I have no propaganda to spread–I deal exclusiely with facts. And, you have no power to tell me to go anywhere–doesn’t that just get to, your whimpering dog-self.

  47. SeeSaw Says:

    What has the title of this blog got to do with facts, Rex? I can answer–absolutely nothing.

  48. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I have no knowledge about wages for parking lot attendants, Rex.

    You have no knowledge of any facts in the public or private sector, you are blind form wearing your rose colored public union goggles;

    L.A. DWP’s gold-plated jobs;

    For a utility that pays parking attendants $74,408 a year,

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinionla/la-ed-ladwp-20120210,0,7115922.story

  49. Captain Says:

    “SeeSaw Says:
    Sorry, cap, I am part of the world too–ha-ha. Talk about someone who runs hot and cold, and friendly to hostile. What kind of world is that?”

    Apparently it’s a world where crooked union reps pretend they’re little old ladies only earning pensions of 15k, while calling themselves SeeSaw.

  50. SeeSaw Says:

    I am not now, nor was I ever a union rep, Captain–when I worked for a public agency, I belonged, to a local employee association, for about half of my 40-year, tenure. Our “union” dues, never exceeded $15/mo. I am female, and, unfortunately, a little older than I would like–my screen name, for commenting purposes is, “SeeSaw”. I receive a pension that totals, slightly over, $50,000/yr–32% of that gross, goes to pay my out-of-pocket costs, for medical insurance premiums, for me and my spouse. My former employer pays $6348/yr. toward my secondary medical insurance premium–such is in addition to what I pay, out-of-pocket. I had to work at least 25 consecutive years to get that–not one month!

  51. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Apparently it’s a world where crooked union reps pretend they’re little old ladies only earning pensions of 15k, while calling themselves SeeSaw.

    Yep, that’s our seesaw.

    The AVERAGE pension for a FULLTIME state/Calpers pensioner if they retire today is $68K per year, plus free, or near free medical, for life.

    For LOCAL 1937 act muni it is $85K per year.

    No one in trough feeder land that retires TODAY with a full 30 or more years in is getting less than $68K on average.

  52. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    SeeSaw Says:
    March 3, 2012 at 1:48 am;
    I receive a pension that totals, slightly over, $50,000/yr
    My former employer pays $6348/yr. toward my secondary medical insurance premium

    LOL……so much for seesaw getting a $15K per year pension like she claimed, what a whopper that one was.

    Reality-seesaw gets $56K PLUS in pension bene’s, that is DOUBLE what the median pay is for the AVERAGE CA employee in the private sector who is still working.

    Did you get that seesaw, you’re receiving TWICE the amount in pension benefits the average person still working-in the real world- makes .

  53. SeeSaw Says:

    I did not claim that I only get $15k per year pension, Rex! Read my posts–you cannot find that anywhere on this thread, or any other thread!

    Furthermore, the average CalPERS pension amount is $2332/mo.; the average CalPERS pension amount, for the group of public employees, that retired after the conclusion, of the 2010-2011 Fiscal Year, is $3065/mo. I get my facts from CalPERS documents. You make your’s up!

    There are many people working the private sector, who make much more than I. I don’t sit around comparing myself with anyone else. I did my job, and followed the rules–period. There is nothing else for me to think about.

    Poor Rex–you just make a bigger fool of yourself by every post you write. Don’t you work for a living someplace?

  54. Ted Steele, Head Renter, it's cozy up here in Rex Poodle's tiny head! Says:

    Seesaw– the Poodle boi does not read so well! LOL

  55. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Furthermore, the average CalPERS pension amount is $2332/mo.;

    Average fulltime calpers retiree, with 30 years or more and who has retired in the last 3 years, is over $68K.

    More facts seesaw cannot dispute becuase they are 100% true.

    Better to keep mouth shut and be thought the fool – than to open mouth and rem,ove all doubt. Ask Captain, he knwos you lie like a public employee ;)

  56. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    SeeSaw Says:
    March 3, 2012 at 8:13 am
    . I get my facts from CalPERS documents. You make your’s up!

    Actually mine are from calTURDS, yours are mad eup, but try to porve me worng. I love spanking you back into the stone ages with facts and truth.

    Here it comes seesaw, buckle up, this is going to smack you into next week :) ;

    Here is the most recent information, drawn directly from the annual reports of Cal STRS and CalPERS:

    From the CalSTRS Annual Report, page 135:

    CalSTRS participants who retired during the 12 months ending June 30th, 2010 (the most recent data), earned pensions as follows:

    25-30 years service, average pension $50,772 per year.
    30-35 years service, average pension $67,980 per year.
    35-40 years service, average pension $86,736 per year.
    From the CalPERS Annual Report, page 151:

    CalPERS participants who retired during the 12 months ending December 31st, 2009 (the most recent data), earned pensions as follows:

    25-30 years service, average pension $53,182 per year.
    30+ years service, average pension $66,828 per year.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/48290940/CA-CalPERS-2010-Comprehensive-Annual-Financial-Report
    http://www.calstrs.com/help/forms_publications/printed/CurrentCAFR/cafr_2010.pdf

  57. SeeSaw Says:

    You can cherry-pick specific groups, to come out with all the figures you want, Rex. The only figures that show a true picture, are the averages, of all the retirees. You could cherry-pick my former CM and myself, and come up with an average of $177,000. My figures are based on all the current retirees. A group of retirees, with 30+ years, is a very small percentage, of the total number of retirees, currently receiving benefits.

    You are really a sad case. I had hope for you at times. But, now, it appears you are mentally,disintegrating. You need to check in, with a mental health counselor, in your area. If you don’t, you are going to eventually pass on, having accomplished nothing more, than being in perpetual anger, over some public employees, getting a better deal, than you got.

  58. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    You can cherry-pick specific groups, to come out with all the figures you want, Rex.

    No I do not cherry pick. I use full-time employees who are NOW retiring, not some $5K per year janitor from 1953 like you do. Those $5K people from the 1950′s and 1960′s and 1970′s are not the ones who are retiring NOW and in the FUTURE. They Are NOT the driving force in exponential cost explosion of public pensions, where GED educated employees receive $10 million pensions at age 50. So you don’t include them, you include the CURRENT costs and future costs. And BTW-CC’s are not the problem, they are a small %, the rank and file cops/ff’s and others are the problem, they receive MORE in pensions than ONE CM does, accounting for 80% of all pension costs.

    I know you can’t handle the truth seesaw-so you resort to your usual personal attacks, and that’s fine with me, it just proves my point, you were spanked super hard so now you deflect and try to get around the fact I spanked you with the truth by insulting me. Bring it on, my hide is thick.

  59. SeeSaw Says:

    I doubt it, that there is any janitor, who retired in 1953, now drawing a pension. The complete outgo per year, is the important factor–there are 500,000+ recipients right now. What does CalPERS pay out, to cover all those recipients? The average age of all service retirees, is 60–not 50. In 40 years of working in the public sector, I cannot point to, any colleague I had, who retired, at the age, of 50. That ought to tell you a lot more, than all those made-up numbers, you use, to get people riled up-especially your own-self. Poor Rex. Have you had your coffee today?

  60. Ted Steele, Head Renter, it's cozy up here in Rex Poodle's tiny head! Says:

    I think the Poodle boi may actually be a retired 1953 janitor………lol—- oh my this is easy!

  61. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    I was actually the crossing guard at the K-6 school :)

    BAM!!!

    Double BAM BAM!!

  62. spension Says:

    Sure, Stockton gave out health insurance benefits way, way too easily.

    But the profiteering in the health insurance industry is the heart of the matter in that case… in the US we pay twice as much as the rest of the world and get half the performance.

    About 100,000 people in the US die each year because physicians (who are making $200,000 to $millions/year) can be bothered to wash their hands frequently enough.

    Sure, lots of physicians are great. But the price-to-performance overall in their industry is worse than that in the public government employee sector.

    And when the two sectors intersect… is it dentists in the California Prisons that get the highest salaries? Yuk what a job. Can’t we hire dental trainees from anywhere in the third world for $60K a year to do our prison dentistry?

  63. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    About 100,000 people in the US die each year because physicians (who are making $200,000 to $millions/year) can be bothered to wash their hands frequently enough.

    They don’t come close to making that much. The insurance companies do, bit not the doctors.

    A general practitioner at Kaiser makes $140K and that can go up to around $400K for the most highly specialized docs. Not even close to a million a year.

  64. Ted Steele, Head Renter, it's cozy up here in Rex Poodle's tiny head! Says:

    Poodle— what a sad life you have.

  65. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Teddy Steal, what a sad dork you are :)

  66. Ted Steele, Head Renter, it's cozy up here in Rex Poodle's tiny head! Says:

    uh huh.

  67. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Yep ;)

  68. spension Says:

    The *average* salary for an neurological surgeon in the US is $487,000/year… 10% make more than $731,000/year… source

    http://www1.salary.com/Surgeon-Neurology-salary.html

    In San Francisco… average neurological surgeon makes $584,000/year and 10% make more than $878,000/year. source…

    http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Surgeon-Neurology-Salary-Details-San-Francisco-CA.aspx

    Dr. Alan Moelleken makes $4 million/year… source…

    http://www.independent.com/news/2012/feb/27/5-million-anti-trust-trial-underway-against-cottag/

    You’d think for all that money that they could wash their hands well enough to prevent 100,000 deaths from infection each year.

  69. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    #1- salary.com is nothing but a website-not a source to cite as being accurate about salary or anything else. It is not a “source”.

    #2- I think I said “..and that can go up to around $400K for the most highly specialized docs.” if you read my post, and that is correct.

    #3- SF is not the USA, it is the most high cost city in the USA-higher than NYC.

    #4- I am happy Dr. Alan Moelleken makes $4 million/year, too bad that does not support anything you posted.

    So once again, the AVERAGE general practicioner doc makes around $140K in the USA, not $4 million, and that is a fact.

  70. The Ted System Says:

    LOL— Bam !! When once again confronted with the facts the little poodle enters denial mode! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz poor little troll!

  71. spension Says:

    Another source … the American Medical Group Association Compensation Survey… says salary.com *underestimated* pay of neurological surgeons… AMGA says $548,000
    (https://www.cms.gov/AcuteInpatientPPS/Downloads/AMGA_08_template_to_09.pdf)

    while salary.com said $487,000. That is for the US… California, which drives the outrageous upward spiral of Stockton’s medical costs, surely pays more.

    Doctors are notorious for not washing their hands… thus driving up the cost of medical care by billions…

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/12/10/071210fa_fact_gawande#ixzz1oPIMCnhA

    “On a sheet of plain paper, he plotted out the steps to take in order to avoid infections when putting a line in. Doctors are supposed to (1) wash their hands with soap, (2) clean the patient’s skin with chlorhexidine antiseptic, (3) put sterile drapes over the entire patient, (4) wear a sterile mask, hat, gown, and gloves, and (5) put a sterile dressing over the catheter site once the line is in. Check, check, check, check, check. These steps are no-brainers; they have been known and taught for years. So it seemed silly to make a checklist just for them. Still, Pronovost asked the nurses in his I.C.U. to observe the doctors for a month as they put lines into patients, and record how often they completed each step. In more than a third of patients, they skipped at least one.”

  72. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    pension I told you above, your unsupported and wild comments about doctor pay and comp-by the notorious salary.com means zero. Nothing.

    And your further comments about hand washing is not even related to salary-I guess your plan is to deflect the truth about doctor pay with hand washing comments.

    Here; why don’t you go to the biggest HMO in the country, Kaiser, which I specifically comment on and download THEIR salary schedule and post it here-prove me wrong.

    I’ll be waiting.

  73. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    Another source … the American Medical Group Association Compensation Survey… says salary.com *underestimated* pay of neurological surgeons… AMGA says $548,000

    Annually
    On an annual basis the median Family and General Practitioner salary is $168,550. The lowest 10% earn $82,630 per year while the upper 10% earn more than $166,400 per year. These salaries are calculated as a mean or average
    http://www.healthcaresalaryonline.com/family-practice-doctor-salary.html

    Don’t worry spension, You were only off by $382K, or about 250%.

  74. The Ted System Says:

    LOL— spension gives chapter and verse citation to his claims and Rexy the dog whistle poodle continues to live on a famous river—Denile!

    LOL

    sleepy little fella!

  75. spension Says:

    Wow, Rex, are you saying *every single* physician in the United States is a General Practitioner? Are you saying the only compensation doctors receive is salary? Do they get health care, Social Security, 401(k)? When those are included even your very restricted figure of $168,550 for *salary alone?* goes over $200,000, which I originally said was the low end of the range of *compensation*.

    Are you saying the American Medical Group Association Compensation Survey was inaccurate? Please give details.

    My point is simple: California health care costs (which, after all, is in the original topic this Calpension posting) rise at an outrageous rate. The high costs in California are due in part to the very high compensation given to doctors, among other things.

    And, it is clear from much research, including that cited above as well as CDC studies that in the US $10′s of billions and 100,000 deaths/year are caused by preventable infections, many of which are caused by doctors simply being unsanitary.

    I don’t know why we pay $168,500/year or $548,000/year to a group of people who don’t wash there hands and thereby cause 100,000 deaths/year. I think the situation is at least as bad as that for California public employees; in both cases compensations are too high and performance is too low. And in both cases the taxpayer is getting taken to the cleaners.

  76. The Ted System Says:

    well said spension…well said.

  77. Rex The Wonder Dog! Says:

    bWow, Rex, are you saying *every single* physician in the United States is a General Practitioner?
    spension, can you not read??

    Do I have to repost my posts so you can reread it????

    “A general practitioner at Kaiser makes $140K and that can go up to around $400K for the most highly specialized docs. Not even close to a million a year.”

    Can you read that???

    And NO, doctors in the real world do NOT get $$$$$ multi-million dollar pensions at age 50 like a GED educated gov cop or firewhiner does, nor do they get 14 paid holidays, nor do they get overtime for any work over 40 hours in a week, nor do they get 6 weeks of paid vacation, nor do they get 15 days of sick leave….you want more facts?????? Or are you still going to try to claim that a doctor who is making less then a GED cop or firewhiner is legit????

    Health Care costs rise twice as fats as inflation, but doctor comp does NOT, so you’re wrong that the cost of healthcare is due to doctor comp.

    Once again, washing hands has nothing to do with the salary a doctor makes.

  78. Ted Steele, Head Renter, it's cozy up here in Rex Poodle's tiny head! Says:

    Poodle mutt—- are you high, again? You think all doctors are GP’s???? LOL troll alert !!!

  79. spension Says:

    ““A general practitioner at Kaiser makes $140K and that can go up to around $400K for the most highly specialized docs. Not even close to a million a year.”

    Can you read that???’

    1)Are you saying, Rex, that the general practitioner at Kaiser does not get health insurance, Social Security, and 401(k) contributions that raise their compensation to a value higher than $140K? Yes or no? Speak up, Rex, couldn’t hear that.

    2)Are you saying, Rex, that the the American Medical Group Association Compensation Survey is wrong? It says that Neurogical Surgeons make $548,196/year. Are you saying that the number $548,196 is smaller than $400K? Yes or no? Speak up, Rex, couldn’t hear that.

    3)Are you in agreement, Rex, that Dr. Alan Moelleken makes $4 million/year? Do you think $4 million is less than $400K? Yes or no? Speak up, Rex, couldn’t hear that.

    4)Are you saying, Rex, that washing one’s hands is too hard a task for someone who makes $140K to $4 million a year? Yes or no, Rex, I couldn’t hear that.

    5)Are you saying, Rex, that 100,000 people dying in the US per year because medical personnel are unsanitary is just fine with you? Yes or no, Rex, I couldn’t hear that.

  80. spension Says:

    Rex, you cherry picked the wrong post of your own to ask about my ability to read. Your post that I responded to was:

    “Annually
    On an annual basis the median Family and General Practitioner salary is $168,550. The lowest 10% earn $82,630 per year while the upper 10% earn more than $166,400 per year. These salaries are calculated as a mean or average
    http://www.healthcaresalaryonline.com/family-practice-doctor-salary.html

    Don’t worry spension, You were only off by $382K, or about 250%.”

    Rex, *you* compared the Family/GP salary with the specialist, *NOT ME*.

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